R+ Vs. Balanced training

[sarahtoo]

Rant incoming. Delete if not allowed pls but I don't see rules against it.

Feeling a bit defalted after having a comment removed from another sub for suggesting someone try a balanced trainer before behavioural euthenaisa for their reactive dog after unsuccessfully spending thousands on positive only training. After a heated disscusion with a few people the mods closed it down. I tried to be respectfull despite practically being called an animal abuser and told my dog only listens because she's scared of me.

How do you reason with people who thinks its better to end a dogs life than subject them to some discomfort to teach them not to act that way?

You ask how to commuicate to a dog something is not acceptable without using any form of punishments and no one can answer of course. They just say teach them somthing else to do instead, yeah great unless the dog decides they'd rather go fight something than listen to your command for a treat.

I give examples about my dog has improved and I am a cruel owner subjecting her to fear and pain to "suppress the behaviour" and not really fixing it. And there was me thinking making the unwanted behavour stop so the dog can enjoy a better life and not be a danger to anyone was the goal. Apparently not if your methods don't align with the R+ ideology. Just to be clear I'm not talking about fearfull reactions here but displays of aggresion towards strangers and coming up the leash redirecting onto me out of frustration.

Feeling bad for dogs that are never given the chance to try rehabilitation by anything other than positive reinforcment only. Going to play with my scared and abused dog for a bit and take her for a walk before bedtime now to cheer myself up.

 

[churchjewelry]

@sarahtoo

How do you reason with people…

Honestly, I don’t. There are some people who are completely impervious to any kind of logic or reason, because they don’t actually process anything you say. They just wait for their turn to speak, and say exactly what they were always going to say, regardless of any point you made.

What I have done in the past is privately DM the person asking the question, and explain my position/recommendation. It’s also useful to acknowledge what the other users had been saying, and why you believe they are incorrect (a lot of people new to this don’t realize the weird, cult-like attitudes that have emerged around certain topics). Invite them over to this sub as well!

 

[boatjourney]

@churchjewelry Beware some dog subs will ban or shadow ban you for sending people dm’s. I mean how dare people know there’s an alternative to the ff religion!

 

[churchjewelry]

@boatjourney That’s actually insane.

Yeah, I made the mistake of trying to explain why I didn’t neuter my (male) dog. Once you get past the initial frustration it’s actually pretty fascinating to watch (from, like, a psychological perspective).

Edit: religion is the perfect descriptor

 

[eve_marie]

@churchjewelry Neutering is another topic people are typically misinformed on. Much like sticking your hand in a dog's face so they can sniff it, it's something that's been propagated over the years without giving it any logical thought.

People still think leaving their male dog intact means it will mark all over your house and try to hump everyone and everything, and they will magically have a well behaved dog after alteration. It doesn't make any sense. Dogs of both genders need their reproductive organs for proper development, both physically and mentally.

I think this mostly starts with vets who book spay/neuters during the puppy's first visit for when the dog reaches 6-9 months. Alteration is easy money.

 

[johnm8269]

@eve_marie Getting the dog altered does not magically have a well-behaved dog. That is wrong way for them to think. As long as they are willing to work with the dog and train correctly, fixing them does nothing but prevent unwanted litters. Everyone has a choice for their dog. And you are wrong in that they need to be intact for their mental and physical well-being. I have had rescues that were fixed and were well mentally and physically.

 

[eve_marie]

@johnm8269

Getting the dog altered does not magically have a well-behaved dog. That is wrong way for them to think. As long as they are willing to work with the dog and train correctly, fixing them does nothing but prevent unwanted litters.

Yeah, that's what I said.

Everyone has a choice for their dog. And you are wrong in that they need to be intact for their mental and physical well-being. I have had rescues that were fixed and were well mentally and physically.

I'm not wrong and I'm not sure why you would think otherwise. Just because a dog being altered at a young age might not necessarily cause any obvious issues outright, that doesn't mean it isn't better to let them fully mature before you have it done.

You know what the main purpose of leaving them intact is, yeah? I'm sure your rescues were wonderful, but that's irrelevant to the point I'm making.

 

[patrickthian]

@eve_marie I'd never not neuter my male, all the intact males I've met have been horrendous to interact with.

 

[eve_marie]

@patrickthian I can guarantee you that has nothing to do with them being intact or not. Neuter them once they're fully mature? Sure, do your thing I don't care.

Neuter them at 6mo or 9mo old? Those things are there for a reason. There are plenty of (good) breeders that will have a clause in the contract voiding the health guarantee if you alter the dog before 1.5-2yo depending on the breed.

 

[prayjazmine]

@eve_marie I adopted my dog from a county animal shelter when he around two months old. They made me wait ten days before I could bring him home and during that time they neutered him. To this day I feel like that was a big contributor to him being so fearful and unconfident more than he probably would have been. He’s three now and grew to be a large strong dog and much improved but still have some issues we are trying to overcome. I don’t have any proof for any of this I just feel like not being able to develop hormonally specifically during his developmental periods negatively affected him.

 

[eve_marie]

@prayjazmine It for sure affected him. To what degree is a guessing game because these things could also be genetic, or any combination of different factors.

I'm not sure how old you are now, but look at it this way; imagine yourself at 7yo. Imagine yourself at 15yo. Now imagine yourself as a fully grown man/woman. These hormones affect you not only physically, but mentally as well.

You're likely much calmer (I hope) than you were as a kid or teenager. You have more muscle mass, deeper voice, etc...

Obviously dogs and humans mature at different rates, but both go through similar changes. If someone neutered you at 7 years old, you will get taller, but you won't go through any of the other changes that are brought on by the hormones from puberty.

They used to castrate some males back in the day before puberty so they could keep their high pitched voice for singing because this prevented them from going through these changes.

It's insane to me that some people still hold onto the belief that a dog's reproductive organs serve no purpose beyond making puppies.

 

[churchjewelry]

@patrickthian It’s actually a pretty interesting (and obvious, once you hear it) explanation. There’s a subset of people who don’t neuter their male dogs because they think it makes them seem more masculine or tough. The kind of person who thinks like that probably isn’t going to be the best dog owner anyway. So, you end up with a correlation between intact dogs and poorly behaved, aggressive dogs. And in a culture like ours where there’s enormous social pressure to neuter, they unfortunately make up a larger proportion of intact dogs than in other countries where neutering isn’t as common.

 

[ramfel]

@sarahtoo ive ranted a time or two about this as well. dog idealists like that are basically fine with dogs getting put of a kill list rather than put an ecollar on a dog and its truly fucking infuriating.

 

[peacecar]

@ramfel

basically fine with dogs getting put of [on?] a kill list rather than put an ecollar on a dog and its truly fucking infuriating.

Interesting you say that. As an E-collar proponent I agree. Though
many of those (adoptable) dogs would need a year in basic CD
training before being ready/prepared for one; it can make all
the difference.

 

[johnm8269]

@ramfel Yeah for PTS is not the answer to behavior problems with the owners who are on the quick fix lane. Instead of loving and caring, they want the perfect, well-behaved dog. Take hard work, training, love and understanding to get that kind of dog.

 

[assilvertried]

@sarahtoo I've also left those subs. At first my posts got deleted, then I would phrase carefully but get deleted or insulted, even a three day ban once when I just confirmed something a poster asked about. I couldn't get fair and honest discussion and it began to upset and frustrate me. It pains me that the people who find those subs needing help might not look further for that help if R+ isn't suitable, and it often isn't by the time they ask for help. Cookies, gates, medication, euthanasia... the person who's dog was reactive towards their granny, told to keep granny in a different room? I despair.

No doubt some do well with R+. People and dogs differ though so not all combinations will do well with it. I think most dogs are too smart unless the person training has a very good understanding of dogs. Even then it's a per dog/owner case.

I just wish those who find those areas could find somewhere like this first, and get sensible advice, which does include R+ if it might work for their case.

Going to play with my scared and abused dog for a bit and take her for a walk before bedtime now to cheer myself up.

Yeah, I have the occasional cheer up session with my poor pooch too. We are the fortunate ones, we can do this ❤

 

[eve_marie]

@assilvertried

the person who's dog was reactive towards their granny, told to keep granny in a different room? I despair.

BE grandma. She's causing the poor dog stress.

 

[assilvertried]

@eve_marie That, or she might quite enjoy a little medication

 

[jonnyalliance]

@sarahtoo You can't. Every single group I am a part of that promotes R+ does not even allow ANY aversives to even be mentioned in ANY situation. The only way they can be right and exert their own self-righteousness over others is by banning conversations and alternative information. That feeling they get for themselves by thinking they are morally superior is more important than the actual welfare of any dog.

I am all for R+ being the first step with any dog, but this movement has started to threaten the lives of so many dogs that could still live very full and enjoyable lives with the help of other methods. They are OK with dogs dying, they see it as more humane, even though they've never bothered to feel an ecollar on themselves.

 

[cs1000]

@sarahtoo Yeah I initially posted to dogtraining, I think, and got bodied for saying I use the prong. I get it to a degree. There are people who go way too hard with these devices without understanding them. But I believe sometimes a stop sign is needed. I don't think a dog will develop fear or worsening behavior if you present the situation to them in a way where they can be shown the right behavior and not allow the excitement level to go critical.