@tubal My overall perspective is that placing training styles in "camps" is bad (hard not to do this, and I'm very guilty of this myself sometimes). If a method works for your dog and your dog is happy and healthy then nothing else matters. I'm pretty anti FF ideology (their overall perspective and approach) but that doesn't mean I don't scatter treats if that method works for my dog in that specific situations. But if the next minute my dog doesn't go for the treats and instead chooses to lunge at another dog then he's gonna hit the end of the leash and be corrected. I'm not gonna feel bad, but I'm also not gonna try the same thing again and again hoping for a different result. If a method works, use it, but also recognize when it doesn't work and adapt. Test, tweak, test, repeat. Pendulum swinging between ideologies is probably a bad idea.
Balanced? Doesn't matter
LIMA? Doesn't matter
FF? Doesn't matter
R+? Doesn't matter
PP? Doesn't matter
"Yank and Crank"? Doesn't matter
"Compulsion based"? Doesn't matter
{Insert latest social media trend}? Doesn't matter
@mew Very well put. The food scatter did work for lowering arousal in a situation but didn’t work for the actual trigger. A prong pop when he started staring at the kids playing with the soccer ball and then redirecting with something else did work and it was no longer an issue. Not everything will be as simple but not everything can be solved with food and praise either. I slowly started incorporating the prong back into our day mainly for getting out of our building and he’s been much calmer around all the different noises and construction workers than he was with food and positioning alone. I will be working with our trainer to incorporate the e collar again.
@tubal Simply a podcast plug but the canine paradigm gives a lot of great advice focused around these topics as well as other “controversial” topics. I would take a deeper dive into training in general and this is a great place to start
@sop1hia1 I do love the canine paradigm. Those Aussie accents are quite soothing. I think I am looking at training as a black and white thing when it really is not. I know what I need to do now but I will definitely be listening more to them. Their entire series with jay jack was eye opening.
@tubal I don't understand why it’s "R+ or aversive tools". That's a dichotomy I only see on the internet. Putting up boundaries and enforcing behaviour by punishment doesn't require prong or e-collar.
@anxioussleeper Yeah I’m happy I posted this because I didn’t realize how stuck I was on specific methods. I’ve been slowly expanding. Goal is to add the ecollar back in by March or sooner and I’ve already added the prong back in for short sessions as needed and it’s given him so much clarity!
@tubal Why not have "training without aversive tools" as a goal instead? Your dog is not deaf/blind/dumb, the clarity should come from you, not a tool. Work on your communication.
@anxioussleeper That wasn’t the point of this post. Of course communication should come from me but i also don’t need to keep tools at a distance just because of the idea to stay in reinforcement based training. Tools don’t automatically equal punishment that’s the mindset I’m trying to get out of. My dog does well with pressure and if I reintroduce these tools correctly that’s all it will be. I would rather have more ways of training and communicating with him at my disposal than to be caught up in tools or no tools.
@tubal Get out of PSA, it's honestly a sport for people who can't train the difficulties in ring and IGP. Good, successful IGP trainers will help you a lot more.
That said, it's not possible to train "positive only" in any protection sport or even any obedience sport.
@imagebeastmarkbeast I personally love the obedience routines in igp a lot more than I do the ones in psa. I’ve learned a lot online from igp trainers, their rules are stricter. I wish I had a ring club near me but I don’t. The plan was to get a pdc just to say I did it but then transfer to ring or igp. Funny enough every one in psa says igp is easier and the dogs wouldn’t be able to handle the “pressure” or psa. I keep working with my trainer and decoys but have considered changing sports.
@tubal My experience with my reactive dog was that we started with R+ then went to a compulsive trainer who said they were balanced, but actually weren't. I don't really label my training any more, I just train my dog in a way he responds to. I use tools, but I also make sure he's having fun and is engaged in the training. I also don't do dog sports, my experience is more so with reactivity. I think boundaries and the use of aversives just depend on the dog and you know your dog better than anyone else. For my dog, I know that he will continue to push boundaries if I give him slack (if I don't enforce his recall he'll figure out I don't really mean it). However, I also know that he gets himself worked up and needs to be having fun to get over a potential trigger. Pairing the e collar on a low stim with existing commands helped get his attention and refocus on the training and despite what people may say it is most definitely not aversive on a low stim. I personally would not recommend using and e collar as positive punishment unless it's an emergency. Definitely working with a trainer who understands that is important. If you start with a trainer and it seems like they're not listening to you or trying to force you to do something you know your dog won't respond to just don't work with them.
Also with aversives, I think people get caught up in the physical aspect. Some dogs can handle physicality better than others it just depends on the dog. Even just body pressure can be meaningful for a dog. We have 2 dogs now and our youngest is a lot more sensitive than Bear and as a result we probably won't ever introduce her to the prong, because for her it isn't necessary and we may end up doing something that looks more like R+ training. For Bear (our older dog) he showed me he could handle it when we introduced it and responds well to it (meaning he isn't shut down and is still engaged in the training). I also don't use the prong much anymore as he's at a point where it may not be necessary anymore.
@imagebeastmarkbeast I got my dog at 2 and he was already e collar and prong collar trained. However I didn’t realize until about 6 months into owning him and working at the kennel he’s from and learning other parts of training that their methods were very compulsive disguised as balanced. They had the same road map for each board and train dog and all ended up going home on a prong and ecollar even when some of the dogs were not fit to be in a board and train let alone would shut down with any tools. Then comes the dog club I go to where they literally use their e collars until their dogs are crying with their ears back. The decoys at this club are incredible but some of those who attend it’s hard to see how they even have a training business. All of that kind of gave me the ick towards aversives when I probably should have blamed the trainer vs the tools. I know my friend that has 4 dogs, 3 mals and a Doberman does not train like this. I’ll be visiting her and her fiancé for more training next month.
