@lilith_eve One other detail - we had to switch our R+ training method. We had started off using LAT and had plateaued at 50ft. Found a behaviorist who explained that our pup was treating the LAT sessions like obedience training. She was actually super stressed but holding it together because that’s what she thought we wanted - for her to get close to the scary thing and look at it. So every session was just adding to her stress, not desensitizing her. We switched to BAT - where she gets the freedom to decide how close she wants to get. That has been a game changer. At first she actually took herself back to 150ft away from dogs. But after 6 mos she now voluntarily brings herself to 30ft.
What actually happened when you tried balanced training?
- Thread starter lilith_eve
- Start date
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- reactive dogs
@mjr88 I can’t understand that. You get a puppy and instead of showing and explaining him how the world works and what is expected from him you punish a puppy for not behaving right. Who didn’t even knew what’s right or wrong. You should have felt abusive the moment you punished your dog for something he didn’t and couldn’t know.
I’m happy for your dog that you switched to a positive training method but the behavior you’re struggling with is entirely your fault. I’m not for blaming anyone for their mistakes in the past but even after what you did to your dog you’re not completely against „balanced training“.
I’m happy for your dog that you switched to a positive training method but the behavior you’re struggling with is entirely your fault. I’m not for blaming anyone for their mistakes in the past but even after what you did to your dog you’re not completely against „balanced training“.
@maizeemay If you read my post history you'll see that we do feel horrible about what we did to our poor puppy, and I totally agree that her current issues are largely due to mistakes we made. We were first time dog owners who got in way over our heads with a working line GSD and mistakenly listened to experts who had been recommended to us by people we had every reason to trust - our breeder, the local police K9 training department, etc. We spent thousands of dollars on these experts. They convinced us that she was aggressive and needed to be controlled, and it took a while for us to gain the confidence to decide these experts that we'd spent a fortune on were wrong. Even after we switched to R+ it's taken us 4 different trainers to finally find one who "gets" our dog. It's been a long, frustrating, often heartbreaking journey.
The reason I can't make a blanket statement that I am against balanced training is I really don't know if there is an applicability when a dog truly is aggressive and the only choice at that point is BE or using aversive tools. Personally, if I were forced to make that choice I would choose BE because I believe aversive tools would only be masking the behavior and sooner or later the dog would snap. But if the choice is killing the dog or aversive tools, I could see some logic in trying the tools.
Edit to add: Although I'm solidly in the R+ camp, I do have to add that it's not correct to assume all R+ trainers are good trainers. Before we found the balanced trainers, we did reach out to a couple of R+ trainers. One, based only on a couple of videos, recommended that we consider BE. Our puppy was only 7 mos old at the time. Horrified, we veered solidly away from R+ when the balanced trainers told us they could fix her. It took a lot of courage for us to go back to R+...every session I expected the trainer to tell me to kill my puppy. In total it's taken us 8 trainers (that's not counting the phone consultations with trainers we decided not to hire) over 2 years and probably close to $20k (stopped counting after $15k) to finally be on the right track.
TLDR: The dog training industry is totally broken.
The reason I can't make a blanket statement that I am against balanced training is I really don't know if there is an applicability when a dog truly is aggressive and the only choice at that point is BE or using aversive tools. Personally, if I were forced to make that choice I would choose BE because I believe aversive tools would only be masking the behavior and sooner or later the dog would snap. But if the choice is killing the dog or aversive tools, I could see some logic in trying the tools.
Edit to add: Although I'm solidly in the R+ camp, I do have to add that it's not correct to assume all R+ trainers are good trainers. Before we found the balanced trainers, we did reach out to a couple of R+ trainers. One, based only on a couple of videos, recommended that we consider BE. Our puppy was only 7 mos old at the time. Horrified, we veered solidly away from R+ when the balanced trainers told us they could fix her. It took a lot of courage for us to go back to R+...every session I expected the trainer to tell me to kill my puppy. In total it's taken us 8 trainers (that's not counting the phone consultations with trainers we decided not to hire) over 2 years and probably close to $20k (stopped counting after $15k) to finally be on the right track.
TLDR: The dog training industry is totally broken.
@gusklenke Thank you so much! Wishing the same to you. It has been a journey, but our wonderful pup is worth all the effort. We love her a ton, and we've finally found a wonderful team who love her as well. Feeling very hopeful that in the not too distant future strangers won't even be able to tell what a rough start we had together.
@lilith_eve I have a frustrated greeter
Before I met my trainer and with terrible conflicting advice from all sorts of "professionals"
I did do one walk trying the dreadful leash pops I saw on the internet
I who had trained my dog using 300 pecks (!) and had the chill trusting pup but one who now wanted to bounce up and say HI to any other dog.
My fault for sending him out with the dog walker who was bad advice and totally mishandling him!
I lasted a couple of hundred metres and seeing his stressed bewildered face just stopped it
My trainer is excellent.. assessed him with frustration... indeed said he was the least complicated dog she has seen all week (she deals with the serious training cases including up to assessing dog attack bites with the police)
Engage and disengage and understanding of thresholds and enrichment combined with impulse control games and good management on walks and I still had my trusting dog and a better bond
My trainer encourages even minimising leahs pressure and giving the dog chocie and rewarding for the right choice. Lots of time to juts look and then satisfy his curiosity and disengage himself.
It is a slow processes but is creating a calmer dog
He is about 80 percent better in 2 years (started end of Jan with trainer so just coming up on two years. He has also moved from being under 2 to nearly 4. (he is born end of march) so some of this is him maturing with positive handling onto a more adult brain.
So I guess I am not really a good example.. and probably not what you are looking for in experience... but I am glad my gut and brain made me recoil in horror from even trying "pops" (hate that term) on the lead...
I started with horses and would no more treat a horse or cat or any animal or indeed child with that kind of action so why would I do it with a dog? For a horse.. and I started on Shetlands who can be formidable the most I would do is step into their space! Thankfully abusive training in the horse world is fading... although I am aware it does still very much exist and is stubbornly held on to by some. You work with a horses brain though and they trust you if you are a good trainer
Slow and steady is winning the race for me and genuinely when my frustrated greeter is over threshold it very much is an unreasoning state.. there is none of this snapping out of it bull..it
Good quality handing.. teaching arousal regulation and impulse control and through being calm and consistent the dog looking to me for reassurance has helped and is the winner IMO
I haven't even don many sessions with the trainer but her insight and help with timing was invaluable
I am going to email my trainer and get another 3 lessons over three months or so and she can reassess where he is at.. look at my technique and we can tweak approaches to get closer to a closer pass... we are definitely refining and moving on BAT approaches
He is good across the road no and in some circumstances (quiet older dogs... some breeds he likes but not too much!) closer... so down to 5 metres or so... but I am still fingers crossed he can achieve a bit closer.
I don't need a take anywhere dog. He doesn't need to go to shops for me... but I just want the beginning of some paths that have narrower places.
Edited to add one thing that did really help me and my dog was I made myself do a mental shift and not just focus on his reactivity for training and stressing about that
I quite consciously and with my trainers encouragement focused on what he was good at and what he did enjoy and did a lot of play and simple training drills, enrichment and simple snuggling as well as long sniffy walks. Lots and lots of sniffy walks.. even just round a car park
I think it did help both our stress levels and confidence and built our bond and trust together! Definitely helped the perspective and enjoyment in my pup
I never expected perfection in any animal but I did have to learn to worry less about what the world thought and defend him. Everyone is safe so the worlds judgment doesn't matter. He is not a soft toy.. he has feelings and emotions of his own!
My trainer is kind and very matter of fact.. she says enjoy them!
Before I met my trainer and with terrible conflicting advice from all sorts of "professionals"
I did do one walk trying the dreadful leash pops I saw on the internet
I who had trained my dog using 300 pecks (!) and had the chill trusting pup but one who now wanted to bounce up and say HI to any other dog.
My fault for sending him out with the dog walker who was bad advice and totally mishandling him!
I lasted a couple of hundred metres and seeing his stressed bewildered face just stopped it
My trainer is excellent.. assessed him with frustration... indeed said he was the least complicated dog she has seen all week (she deals with the serious training cases including up to assessing dog attack bites with the police)
Engage and disengage and understanding of thresholds and enrichment combined with impulse control games and good management on walks and I still had my trusting dog and a better bond
My trainer encourages even minimising leahs pressure and giving the dog chocie and rewarding for the right choice. Lots of time to juts look and then satisfy his curiosity and disengage himself.
It is a slow processes but is creating a calmer dog
He is about 80 percent better in 2 years (started end of Jan with trainer so just coming up on two years. He has also moved from being under 2 to nearly 4. (he is born end of march) so some of this is him maturing with positive handling onto a more adult brain.
So I guess I am not really a good example.. and probably not what you are looking for in experience... but I am glad my gut and brain made me recoil in horror from even trying "pops" (hate that term) on the lead...
I started with horses and would no more treat a horse or cat or any animal or indeed child with that kind of action so why would I do it with a dog? For a horse.. and I started on Shetlands who can be formidable the most I would do is step into their space! Thankfully abusive training in the horse world is fading... although I am aware it does still very much exist and is stubbornly held on to by some. You work with a horses brain though and they trust you if you are a good trainer
Slow and steady is winning the race for me and genuinely when my frustrated greeter is over threshold it very much is an unreasoning state.. there is none of this snapping out of it bull..it
Good quality handing.. teaching arousal regulation and impulse control and through being calm and consistent the dog looking to me for reassurance has helped and is the winner IMO
I haven't even don many sessions with the trainer but her insight and help with timing was invaluable
I am going to email my trainer and get another 3 lessons over three months or so and she can reassess where he is at.. look at my technique and we can tweak approaches to get closer to a closer pass... we are definitely refining and moving on BAT approaches
He is good across the road no and in some circumstances (quiet older dogs... some breeds he likes but not too much!) closer... so down to 5 metres or so... but I am still fingers crossed he can achieve a bit closer.
I don't need a take anywhere dog. He doesn't need to go to shops for me... but I just want the beginning of some paths that have narrower places.
Edited to add one thing that did really help me and my dog was I made myself do a mental shift and not just focus on his reactivity for training and stressing about that
I quite consciously and with my trainers encouragement focused on what he was good at and what he did enjoy and did a lot of play and simple training drills, enrichment and simple snuggling as well as long sniffy walks. Lots and lots of sniffy walks.. even just round a car park
I think it did help both our stress levels and confidence and built our bond and trust together! Definitely helped the perspective and enjoyment in my pup
I never expected perfection in any animal but I did have to learn to worry less about what the world thought and defend him. Everyone is safe so the worlds judgment doesn't matter. He is not a soft toy.. he has feelings and emotions of his own!
My trainer is kind and very matter of fact.. she says enjoy them!
jamesharvey39571
New member
@lilith_eve We had no idea what we were doing and started with what we later realized was "balanced training" (self-described as LIMA) from a very well-reviewed and experienced trainer near us for our reactive, impulsive dog. She did a great job on things like teaching him look, place, and some other very helpful skills. No improvement in his reactivity, though, and looking back I kind of cringe to remember the "suppress the symptoms" approaches we were handed.
Fast forward to working with a fear-free/R+ trainer who is amazing - in 10 months he's gone from risking injury to both of us with tantrums to being very walkable. We're still working on decreasing distance to triggers, and he still gets too excited in new places, but we have the skills to improve these now. Most importantly, he now looks to me for guidance not bc I "dominate" or frighten him, but bc we've done the work together and are building strong positive habits to shape his behavior. A genuinely good trainer who focused on handler skills for conditioning responses vs painful gadgets was life-changing for us, at least. (Edits for length)
Fast forward to working with a fear-free/R+ trainer who is amazing - in 10 months he's gone from risking injury to both of us with tantrums to being very walkable. We're still working on decreasing distance to triggers, and he still gets too excited in new places, but we have the skills to improve these now. Most importantly, he now looks to me for guidance not bc I "dominate" or frighten him, but bc we've done the work together and are building strong positive habits to shape his behavior. A genuinely good trainer who focused on handler skills for conditioning responses vs painful gadgets was life-changing for us, at least. (Edits for length)
sadiegrace
New member
@lilith_eve my dog is a two year old fear reactive gsd, shes on fluoxetine as well
i saw a balanced trainer a few times (i did not know he used balanced methods when i first engaged him) and while his methods did work to mute her reactions and heighten her obediance, the consequence of damaging my relationship with her simply wasn't worth it. she was fearful in a situation and then to add aversive stimulus from the person she trusted and relied on in that situation only made her worse, even if from the outside it looked like she was decreasing reactions.
shes a very sensitive dog, and i only had maybe three sessions with him before i decided that it absolutely wasn't worth it, wasn't helping, and was damaging for my dog.
with the combo of positive only and the medication and a really strong focus on building and strengthening her relationship with me as a handler she has come so so far in the last year. she still has little episodes sometimes, i.e barking at another dog on a walk, but she generally is able to exist in the world and walk past other dogs on the footpath and in parks and cope with her triggers without losing it. i don't think she'll ever be an off - leash dog because i don't know how she would react to dogs off leash without me being able to control the situation, but she used to have massive melt down reactions seeing a dog from 50 metres away and now she can, most days, walk past them in close proximity and be fine.
my advice is to keep on with the meds (it took 6 or so months for me to see a change in my dog, but it truly has helped her beyond words) and to keep working on building a trusting relationship between you and your dog - which aversive training methods will only damage.
i saw a balanced trainer a few times (i did not know he used balanced methods when i first engaged him) and while his methods did work to mute her reactions and heighten her obediance, the consequence of damaging my relationship with her simply wasn't worth it. she was fearful in a situation and then to add aversive stimulus from the person she trusted and relied on in that situation only made her worse, even if from the outside it looked like she was decreasing reactions.
shes a very sensitive dog, and i only had maybe three sessions with him before i decided that it absolutely wasn't worth it, wasn't helping, and was damaging for my dog.
with the combo of positive only and the medication and a really strong focus on building and strengthening her relationship with me as a handler she has come so so far in the last year. she still has little episodes sometimes, i.e barking at another dog on a walk, but she generally is able to exist in the world and walk past other dogs on the footpath and in parks and cope with her triggers without losing it. i don't think she'll ever be an off - leash dog because i don't know how she would react to dogs off leash without me being able to control the situation, but she used to have massive melt down reactions seeing a dog from 50 metres away and now she can, most days, walk past them in close proximity and be fine.
my advice is to keep on with the meds (it took 6 or so months for me to see a change in my dog, but it truly has helped her beyond words) and to keep working on building a trusting relationship between you and your dog - which aversive training methods will only damage.
lilith_eve
New member
@sadiegrace Thanks! Based on what you've shared, the trajectory of your GSD seems similar to ours in terms of meds and R+ training. Nice to hear that you've continued to make stepwise improvements over time! Congrats on sticking to your plan and doing what you feel is best for your dog.
@lilith_eve At a vet clinic, there was a dog who was terrified to come into the door. The dog would refuse to walk even 30' from the door and would even go as far as to bite if pushed. This is a large protection type breed.
Unless you put a prong collar on the dog. Then the dog would meekly walk in, abliet still shaking. You did not have to "correct" the dog while in the prong at the clinic, the history of correction was enough.
The owner said the dog respected the prong. In reality, the pain of the prong collar (or threat of pain) was suppressive enough to make the dog do something the dog was terrified of. The dog was still terrified of going inside, but the option to say no had been removed.
Punishment suppresses behaviour. It does not work well with the underlying issue.
Unless you put a prong collar on the dog. Then the dog would meekly walk in, abliet still shaking. You did not have to "correct" the dog while in the prong at the clinic, the history of correction was enough.
The owner said the dog respected the prong. In reality, the pain of the prong collar (or threat of pain) was suppressive enough to make the dog do something the dog was terrified of. The dog was still terrified of going inside, but the option to say no had been removed.
Punishment suppresses behaviour. It does not work well with the underlying issue.
meljmurray
New member
@lilith_eve You've made great progress for 6 months! Why are you trying to change something that's working?
Don't get so caught up in
You can't train the dog you hope to have, you can only train the dog you have.
Don't get so caught up in
You can't train the dog you hope to have, you can only train the dog you have.
bushido8000
New member
@lilith_eve There is one piece of information you didn't mention that you will need to make a fully informed review of the responses, which is how far into training with aversives the handler is. As in, you need to consider both short term and long term results.
Full disclosure - I have never trained using aversives, nor would I consider it, so I don't have personal experience with this, but there are numerous examples in this sub of people who have experienced the fallout from using aversive methods (as in, they obtained short term results, but that proved to be temporary, and once the temporary period was over, the dog was as reactive, if not more, than before). Someone a few months in achieving temporary results doesn't necessarily equate to the methods truly being successful beyond that temporary period. I'll also add that there are issues unique to reactive dogs when it comes to training with aversives, so to the extent anyone offers experiences with their non-reactive dogs, those won't be relevant data points.
Full disclosure - I have never trained using aversives, nor would I consider it, so I don't have personal experience with this, but there are numerous examples in this sub of people who have experienced the fallout from using aversive methods (as in, they obtained short term results, but that proved to be temporary, and once the temporary period was over, the dog was as reactive, if not more, than before). Someone a few months in achieving temporary results doesn't necessarily equate to the methods truly being successful beyond that temporary period. I'll also add that there are issues unique to reactive dogs when it comes to training with aversives, so to the extent anyone offers experiences with their non-reactive dogs, those won't be relevant data points.
hobster777
New member
@lilith_eve We use balanced training. I don’t mention much of what we do because I try to respect the subreddit rules but had I not met our trainer I’m pretty sure my dog would be euthanized at this point in our life. Feel free to DM me if you have any questions. You have to do what works for your dog and lifestyle. I do treats and praise as well. My dog understands boundaries and I really have to keep it strict because he WILL take over if I let him and he has.
My dog isn’t perfect and we have had a few struggles in the past months but that’s because I stopped training him and keeping up with a lot due to my crippling depression. We are back on it and I can see a difference with just one session back with our trainer. If I continue taking him to group class he’s so so much better. Right now, he’s on combo meds with a behaviorist and we will be heading back to group class beginning of 2024.
Good luck with your dog and whatever you choose to do.
My dog isn’t perfect and we have had a few struggles in the past months but that’s because I stopped training him and keeping up with a lot due to my crippling depression. We are back on it and I can see a difference with just one session back with our trainer. If I continue taking him to group class he’s so so much better. Right now, he’s on combo meds with a behaviorist and we will be heading back to group class beginning of 2024.
Good luck with your dog and whatever you choose to do.
@lilith_eve Only R+ did not work consistently for our fear and excitement reactive GSD. We used it for 2 years and had 2 trainers during that time. It was fine for most everything except for big reactions, during which she completely ignored commands, treats, and toys. She just got tunnel vision that we could not communicate through. We took her to a balanced trainer that uses all quadrants of operant conditioning. We have been using that method consistently for a year and it totally changed our dog. We no longer have any reactions on walks. She is much more trusting of me to handle situations that are scary for her. Most importantly, we can communicate with her if and when she goes over that threshold to bring her back down. She is now more confident, consistent, and has a better quality of life. Our dog did not become more anxious or fearful with the introduction of balanced training.
Hope this is in line with community rules! Feel free to message me for more info.
Hope this is in line with community rules! Feel free to message me for more info.
lilith_eve
New member
shanekeeslar
New member
@lilith_eve I have a rescue GSD mix who was a frustrated greeter as a puppy, and soon developed into fear reactive with only R+ methods for over a year. Balanced training saved him and he is the best boy, 2 years later and he hardly needs any more guidance from me in stressful situations. I am sure he would have been an aggressive mess if we had not changed our methods when we did.
Please message if you have any questions!
Please message if you have any questions!
lilith_eve
New member
@shanekeeslar Thanks! Pm'd you
coltproulx
New member
@lilith_eve
- Around 2.5 years total of working on our pit bull’s reactivity, which we now believe is based in overarousal
- Started with an R+ trainer, he actually got worse in part because rewards/praise added to the overstimulation (also because we live in a dense urban neighborhood, we don’t have the luxury of time/space to control his threshold/bubble)
- Started experimenting with balanced and did our first session with a balanced trainer about 6 months in
- Have since worked with two other balanced trainers/facilities to continue tweaking/trying new things and getting practice in different scenarios (structured socialization, group classes, etc.)
- He’s gone from exploding at the sight of a dog a baseball field away to usually being able to pass them across the street without the other owner evening noticing us
- No fallout so far. He isn’t shut down/suppressed and shows all the signs of improvement that R+ training looks for
jluponeage
New member
@lilith_eve This sub is NOT the appropriate place for this discussion because the majority of the topic (ie. aversives and balanced training) goes against the rules set by the mods.
The r/opendogtraining subreddit would be the correct place to post this.
The r/opendogtraining subreddit would be the correct place to post this.
lilith_eve
New member
@jluponeage Okay, thanks!