What proportion of balanced trainers use bonkers?

[444chris444]

@lavister It's gross. 'Let's spike the dogs anxiety levels because it never knows when it's gonna get smacked! Yep, that will help it calm down for sure!'

 

[messi]

@cj Only time I’ve ever used an item as “bonker” was to prevent injury or escape.

To stop a fight or stop a dog from escaping and getting hurt on the fencing.

I’m not a trainer , I just worked at doggie daycare and out of almost 8 years I thankfully only had to resort to that a small handful of times. Usually it was a metal water bowl thrown at the fence near the dog’s face. Distracted them just long enough to grab them.

At the end of the day it was only for emergent purposes.

 

[notbybreadalone]

@cj I’m a trainer and I’ve only ever used a bonker on one dog (one of my three personal dogs). He is one of those cases that gets amplified by prong or e collar pressure when it comes to correcting specific unwanted behaviours. Using a bonker snaps him out of it, whereas the e collar or prong will send him forward regardless of the conditioning. I think for 99.9% of cases, bonkers are overkill and shouldn’t be used.

 

[lovedaddy]

@notbybreadalone My dog is like this, if I correct him he gets amped up even more. I started grabbing his collar, getting eye level, and a stern no. It seems to be working to let him know he did something wrong. I really only do this outside if he reacts

 

[notbybreadalone]

@lovedaddy If I did that, I’d get bit lol

 

[lovedaddy]

@notbybreadalone Interesting lol, have you had your dog as a puppy? He’s been very amped up before and never redirected so I feel comfortable doing it

 

[notbybreadalone]

@lovedaddy No, I adopted him a few months ago when he was about a year old. He was headed for behavioural euthanasia. Figured I’d give him a shot and so far so good!

Redirection isn’t all that common so I wouldn’t worry too much about it if your dog has never shown signs of it!

 

[lovedaddy]

@notbybreadalone Wow, you’re a great person for that. I hope you guys have many fun long years.

 

[notbybreadalone]

@lovedaddy Thank you for the kind words!! Hope the same for you and your pup

 

[airamnire]

@notbybreadalone That’s because e collars and prongs further stimulate the sympathetic nervous system. They should not be used for reactivity. Even says it in the instructions for the tools. Yikes.

 

[notbybreadalone]

@airamnire I don’t use them for reactivity. I use them to proof commands the dog already knows or for unwanted behaviours. Not all unwanted behaviours are related to reactivity.

 

[airamnire]

@notbybreadalone It just sounds like your dog doesn’t do well with corrections if he tries to fight them.

 

[notbybreadalone]

@airamnire This issue was only under specific circumstances, and I don’t use prongs or e collars on him in those circumstances because of his response to pressure.

 

[cr0011]

@cj I’ve seen it used in a playgroup to intervene when it looked like a fight was about to break out. That’s a bad time to correct with an e-collar. It was a 1 gallon milk jug with some pebbles in it. Throwable, harmless, but noisy and startling to interrupt the fight drive.

 

[cj]

@cr0011 Helpful, thanks — they do a lot of work teaching intra-dog manners (and with mostly large breeds) in heavily supervised play groups, so may have started using it in that context. And that’s consistent with an earlier consult about fence fighting.

My sense is that’s not the only time it was used…but that could have laid the groundwork for generalizing to other scenarios when multiple different trainers are present and there’s only one ecollar remote.

 

[cr0011]

@cj They're also good simply as a shake can without the throwing part for interrupting behaviors.

I'm a big fan of playgroups. They're great for teaching manners and building confidence. Dogs are often the best teachers for each other.

 

[sarahtoo]

@cj I have used one, very, very rarely. For any who dont know what one is it is something you throw at the dog to startle them as a punishment. They should not cause any pain at all but for some dogs they are still an incredibly powerfull punisher, worse than high lvl e collar stims or prong collar corrections for some even.

I haven't seen any negative fallout from it. My dog still loves her ball and playing catch but as I say its a really extreme punishment to her so I've hardley ever used it. (Twice for really out of control aggresive behaviour at the window and fence, now she listens when I tell her to stop)

What were they using it for? If it was just for breaking a place command or something that is insanely over the top. Can only comment thinking of my one dog I have experience of using one with but that would possibly mess her up for life.

Whenever I think about them I remember the line from Spiderman "with great power comes great responsiblity".

 

[quaheem]

@cj I have a formerly very reactive Malinois and out of desperation took him to Shield K9 for their reactivity training where they used bonkers. In their case it was an empty windshield washer fluid bottle filled with a couple inches of pebbles. It can’t really hurt the dog, but they would whip it at the dogs head. It scares the crap out of them.

The bonker was horrible and I’m so sorry I ever went. My dog became more afraid. He didn’t want to get out do the car when we arrived on the second day, the only time and place that’s ever happened.

After being hit 7 times, my boy redirected and tried to bite the trainer attacking him. The trainer was surprised and told me off. That’s when I realized this was stupid. First off, his attempted attack on the shield k9 trainer was perfectly reasonable. If he’s thrown that at me, it would have taken much less than 7 tries before I attacked him! I realized that fixing fear with greater fear was both stupid and dangerous. It might appear to work until they encounter something they fear more than the bonker. By then you might be lax thinking the problem was solved and then you’re really in for it!

Now could it be used for other things? Sure. Is is a good idea? I can’t think of a single situation where this is a good idea. Sorry. The situations where prongs and ecollars don’t work? There are lots. Use a slip collar. Condition the dog properly to the ecollar. NePoPo is very big on this and IT WORKS. It really does.

I regularly use e collars and prongs. I’m a NePoPo style trainer now. I see no time where a bonker is the best tool for the job. Often, there is better way, you just need to find it.

 

[jaenalyn]

@cj

in a board and train setting is there really ever a reason to favor a bonker over a stim? Or is using them at all a red flag?

The bonker has an element of surprise because the dog doesn't have to be wearing a collar

 

[444chris444]

@jaenalyn I feel there are better ways to get your dog's attention here.