Question for balanced trainers/trainers who use aversives in their training plan - I have a couple questions! —A +R trainer

[davecb]

@coreopsis

Retriever trainers in Europe don’t use e-collars. BUT they aren’t 100% R+ and their dogs would struggle to pass a US Master test and couldn’t compete in US (or Canadian) field trials.

Agreed. What I've seen online of their dogs working is not at all comparable to what is expected here in the US.

 

[annaliseh]

@davecb Force fetch, I believe, since predisposition to retrieve is genetic and can be bred for. My dog has a really good natural retrieve (though if he didn't I wouldn't FF him anyway -- I don't trial nor do I mind walking over to pick up a bird). As you say, it's a common thing to FF even dogs that are predisposed to retrieve naturally, just so it's rock solid.

But I've not run across anyone with a pointing breed that hasn't collar conditioned (or used some other sort of aversive methods) by the time the dog is working in real hunting conditions. I am sure it happens, as you mention with your friend, and I would love to hear how people do it (hence my original q).

 

[coreopsis]

@annaliseh To me, the best description of the purpose of FF came from Pat Nolan. The point of FF is to get the dog to understand that the retrieve is for the handler, not the dog. Most retrievers are hard wired to chase and pick up something. It’s the return and give and are the issue.

 

[annaliseh]

@coreopsis Yup, that makes total sense. My dog loves to go get the bird, and he's a pleaser, so he likes to bring it generally to me. Giving it up, however, is hard for him. We don't get into tug-o-wars, but if I wanted to trial or hunt test, he'd need to be FFd. "Leave it" works for a pair of socks no problemo, but a big juicy rooster that is still flapping is basically the highest value treat on the planet. I am always still amazed that he's willing to give them up at all.