@imagebeastmarkbeast It bums me out, truly. Divides happen and tribes form with ideologies, I get it. Dogs deserve whatever effort from us as is necessary for their success.
Am I the only one who doesn’t like using the term balanced trainer?
- Thread starter gineke
- Start date
-
- Tags
- dog training
@aveotheotokos I’ve always appreciated his terms of what he does.
I do really like what you said at the end there as well.
I honestly leave it up to my clients if they want to do strictly R+ or more open training. I started my career as a strictly R+ but switched about a year ago
I do really like what you said at the end there as well.
I honestly leave it up to my clients if they want to do strictly R+ or more open training. I started my career as a strictly R+ but switched about a year ago
aveotheotokos
New member
@gineke Would be interested in hearing why you chose to switch.. I’m not a professional, but I switch a number of years ago when r+ methods / trainers couldn’t help me with lab-mix.. and we hired a “balanced” trainer out of desperation. He quickly dispelled all the bs we had heard, and we saw firsthand how the methods could be used fairly and got results almost immediately.
@aveotheotokos So I started my career at an incredibly toxic r+ facility, (was told that even though my dog found halters adverse, it was ok to use it because it’s not an “adverse tool”, even though it completely shut her down), they also loved the term “self soothing” when they had 40 dogs in the kennels all screaming) It was not a good place lol.
I was fed so so so much misinformation during that 3 year period that led me to believe that all tools were bad until I discovered other dog pros who use tools responsibly about a year ago. I studied a lot and finally made the decision to try it with my own dog after 3 years of slowly but surely worsening human and dog reactivity with my Great Pyrenees that was not improving at all even after working with multiple R+ trainers and working with her daily at my home.
For us, using tools gave us clarity and communication that we so desperately needed, she can finally walk with other dogs, go to pet friendly places again and I can tell she’s really enjoying life more now that we have this freedom again.
For more content Evie (my dog) uses the EZ educator on lvls 4-9 and a prong, I was beside myself still when I bought these tools still worried I was going to ruin our relationship, little did I know it would completely change it for the better.
I was fed so so so much misinformation during that 3 year period that led me to believe that all tools were bad until I discovered other dog pros who use tools responsibly about a year ago. I studied a lot and finally made the decision to try it with my own dog after 3 years of slowly but surely worsening human and dog reactivity with my Great Pyrenees that was not improving at all even after working with multiple R+ trainers and working with her daily at my home.
For us, using tools gave us clarity and communication that we so desperately needed, she can finally walk with other dogs, go to pet friendly places again and I can tell she’s really enjoying life more now that we have this freedom again.
For more content Evie (my dog) uses the EZ educator on lvls 4-9 and a prong, I was beside myself still when I bought these tools still worried I was going to ruin our relationship, little did I know it would completely change it for the better.
aveotheotokos
New member
@gineke My experience was similar.. although I’ve never worked at a training facility…
Now that I have a good understanding of these tools, I find it hard to understand how so many r+ trainers can claim just putting a prong collar on your dog will ruin your relationship and cause so much discomfort that it’s not worth the long term benefits to the dog.
My Aussie was an absolute stressed out mess when I adopted him…. R+ trainers had done nothing to help him or his previous owners. This guy was basically relegated to life in a cage waiting for “BE”. And a prong collar would RUIN his life?
Mild correction, leadership, guidance and lots of rewards and praise for good behaviors, and now he’s a very, well adjusted dog…
I fully understand why anyone would want to start with r+ methods, but when they fail, it’s time for something else.
Now that I have a good understanding of these tools, I find it hard to understand how so many r+ trainers can claim just putting a prong collar on your dog will ruin your relationship and cause so much discomfort that it’s not worth the long term benefits to the dog.
My Aussie was an absolute stressed out mess when I adopted him…. R+ trainers had done nothing to help him or his previous owners. This guy was basically relegated to life in a cage waiting for “BE”. And a prong collar would RUIN his life?
Mild correction, leadership, guidance and lots of rewards and praise for good behaviors, and now he’s a very, well adjusted dog…
I fully understand why anyone would want to start with r+ methods, but when they fail, it’s time for something else.
patricia1990
New member
@gineke Do you listen to the Canine Paradigm podcast? One of the guys has coined his training method as 'Positive First'. During the learning phase, it's positive reinforcement (maybe negative reinforcement if you train NePoPo).
I think the majority of balanced trainers I know skew about 95% positive anyway
I think the majority of balanced trainers I know skew about 95% positive anyway
imagebeastmarkbeast
New member
orlando_wcbc
New member
@gineke I just don't like the word "balanced" period, lol. It's annoying to me in any context. It's basically one of two things:
- A vacuous descriptor because everyone thinks whatever they prefer is the perfect balance. Basically, I have found the true and proper balance and everyone who disagrees is unbalanced!
- An idea that arbitrarily partaking of everything on a spectrum of options is a good thing. As if the fact that there are options you ignore or reject means you're not balancing everything.
@gineke It should be just "dog trainer" but the rise of all the R+ stuff in recent years makes people think thats the normal way and anything that involves so much as saying no to a dog is aversive.
Its kinda annoying they've hijacked LIMA lately too. Its Minimally aversive, not non aversive. They forget about how invasive there methods are to owners lives too, just change up your whole routine, get a new job so your dog isnt ever alone, and only walk them at 2 am to avoid triggers. Not really exceptable if the problem could be fixed in an hour with a couple of leash corrections imo.
I would call dog daddy avoidance based training at best, and thats being very kind to him I feel.
Its kinda annoying they've hijacked LIMA lately too. Its Minimally aversive, not non aversive. They forget about how invasive there methods are to owners lives too, just change up your whole routine, get a new job so your dog isnt ever alone, and only walk them at 2 am to avoid triggers. Not really exceptable if the problem could be fixed in an hour with a couple of leash corrections imo.
I would call dog daddy avoidance based training at best, and thats being very kind to him I feel.
@gineke I tell clients that a perfect trainer would simply issue a command and the dog would immediately, accurately, and enthusiastically execute the command. But no one is perfect. Ecollar, prong, choke chains, toys, food, verbal praise, etc… there are many tools and methods out there but at the end of the day they are all crutches. They can aid, often greatly, in training, but the aim should be to phase them out when appropriate or not needed. Even if that day may never realistically come, we should still strive for that level of perfection. I tell my clients I’ll use whatever methods or tools they’d prefer, I only ask the opportunity to explain in detail how the tools/methods/etc that are available to us are employed before dismissing their value outright.
@gineke I mean, I just wish that there was a term for a balanced training that had the same like main stream zing as “positive reinforcement”. because with random people that like don’t know much about dogs at all You say “balanced training” they often don’t really know what you mean. but if you say “positive reinforcement training” they almost unilaterally understand.
@gineke What does it matter, though? If you call yourself something else, you're still a balanced trainer. And the prong and e-collars are aversives. They're used for punishment, which is the long and short of it. But it's up to you to show them or explain to them why you're not like the Dog Daddy or how your method differs. Most trainers that aren't positive only are balanced trainers. Doesn't matter if it's 90/10 or 70/30 for rewards:corrections(punishment). Adding more titles just muddies the water and most people will come to the conclusion that you're a balanced trainer, anyway. Not all balanced trainers are alone, though.
@gineke Doesn't matter, it's still an aversive, no matter how you justify it. I use all tools available, so I'm not judging. I'm also not sugar coating it. They don't follow the commands with the e-collar because it's enjoyable. They follow them because they have been conditioned to the stimulus, understand what it means, and also understand how to turn off the weird sensation.
orlando_wcbc
New member
@gineke What if I jump rope with the dog leash and never attach it to my dog's collar? I mean, if all you're doing is using such a low level stim that it's not aversive at all, and you're opposed to aversives, then, yea, don't call yourself a balanced trainer. You'd just be misleading people pointlessly.
@orlando_wcbc I’m not apposed to aversives though and I do use Ecollars and prongs lmao, I’m just saying in this case it is not an aversive tool to my dog. Either way that’s not my point when it comes to talking about what would be an appropriate thing to call my methodology, I am referring to the comment saying they are aversive tools, when realistically they don’t always have to be