R+ Vs. Balanced training
- Thread starter sarahtoo
- Start date
-
- Tags
- dog training
clintpauljohnson
New member
@sarahtoo This used to bother me until I came to realize people like that have no idea what fair, effective, modern balanced training looks like.
Either they were told it doesn't work, or it does work but can be damaging side effects (but no mention of how to avoid them), or "science says." Or, they have used corrections in training themselves 15-20 years ago and assume that it's the same today when in fact it has evolved a ton (as has positive reinforcement). In any case, they never feel there's a reason to take a look at how modern trainers are actually using corrections as part of a training program and what they are able to accomplish.
So you end up with people that believe if it can't be solved with positive reinforcement, no training will solve it...or that three years is a reasonable timeframe for training a reactive dog...
Either they were told it doesn't work, or it does work but can be damaging side effects (but no mention of how to avoid them), or "science says." Or, they have used corrections in training themselves 15-20 years ago and assume that it's the same today when in fact it has evolved a ton (as has positive reinforcement). In any case, they never feel there's a reason to take a look at how modern trainers are actually using corrections as part of a training program and what they are able to accomplish.
So you end up with people that believe if it can't be solved with positive reinforcement, no training will solve it...or that three years is a reasonable timeframe for training a reactive dog...
@clintpauljohnson "positive reinforcement" is a useless phrase, not a
training method. Its so integral to command that
its nearly implied.
"Negative punishment", "Counter-Conditioning", ...
Those are training methods, at least the ones I prefer.
It could be reasonable, in the right hands. Dogs live in the moment
and can outgrow their reactivity. But they'll still have bad dreams
10 years past their puppyhood abuses.
Patience is the key to life
training method. Its so integral to command that
its nearly implied.
"Negative punishment", "Counter-Conditioning", ...
Those are training methods, at least the ones I prefer.
It could be reasonable, in the right hands. Dogs live in the moment
and can outgrow their reactivity. But they'll still have bad dreams
10 years past their puppyhood abuses.
Patience is the key to life
stewardmcalister
New member
clintpauljohnson
New member
@stewardmcalister Yes, if the dog (and owner's) quality of life can be improved in weeks or months, it's really a shame to take several years. And that seems to be common over in other groups.
@sarahtoo R+ Vs. Balanced training.
Nothing I love more than a good rant about this topic. Buckle up buckaroo.
You're free to talk about whatever you'd like here for the most part from what I've seen.
Even if it's some R+ bs about how you need to build 37 gates and fences throughout your house and yard, only walk your dog at 4am to avoid triggers, have your dog on a regimen of free trade certified 100% organic artisanal trazadone, and use a front clip harness, because that's clearly better and more practical than correcting unwanted behaviours.
This sub is fairly pro balanced training, but it still doesn't delete comments like that or have an automod send you a paragraph for mentioning liver treats.
You monster. How dare you suggest that giving a dog a correction is somehow more humane than straight up killing a dog. If I correct my dog how can I make a sympathy post about how I tried absolutely everything for my little fur baby other than the one thing that could help?
I'm assuming it's the reactive dog sub, aka r/behaviouraleuthanasia. If not, I'd be surprised. If you look through my comment history pretty much every 5th one is shitting on that place. I hate it. Like...hate it and everything it's about.
Very rarely will you find someone who actually knows what they're talking about in there. It's mostly a place to share stories about how after two years of training someone was finally able to walk their dog past another dog on the other side of the street without it redirecting and taking a chunk out of their calf. Progress!
Also, BE. So, so much BE. It's depressing.
You will never meet a more reasonable, informed, rational, level headed group of people than R+ "trainers" when you mention a prong or e-collar.
They legitimately have no idea how balanced training works, and assume everyone tazes their dog into submission until it shits itself and calls it a success.
The best thing to do is focus on the reward side of balanced training. This way you can avoid automod bitching at you, they can at least somewhat relate, and it's harder for them to blast you because you're, you know, rewarding your dog to increase the frequency of behaviours you'd like to see repeated.
I'm fairly certain the majority of people in there don't have any background in dog training, and only repeat things they've heard other places.
You don't. The thing about reasoning is it requires someone to be reasonable, and as you've noticed, once you mention corrections or aversives, emotions get involved which immediately shuts down someone's ability to think logically.
Punishment comes in many forms, and it's up to the dog what it finds aversive enough to extinguish a behaviour. Some dogs will consider something as benign as a non-reinforcement marker aversive. Some dogs need you to put a slip lead on them and light their ass up until they can hear colours.
They don't consider a head halter aversive, even though, logically, it wouldn't work if the dog didn't find it aversive. Why? Because it doesn't look scary. It's ridiculous.
There is constant goalpost shifting as to what constitutes aversives in their opinion. Who cares what the dog thinks, right? I think e-collars and prongs are mean and terrible, therefore so does the dog.
They don't have any grasp on the concept of competing motivators.
You're using corrections to decrease the frequency of undesirable behaviours, and rewards to increase the frequency of desirable behaviours. This is how you mold the dog you want. It's not a difficult concept, they're just idiots.
You're 100% correct with your thinking. This is the point where you can't take it personal.
I don't know about your dog, but my dogs go nuts when they see me pull out the prong or e-collar because they know it's party time and we're about to have fun. This would not be possible for two of my dog's with strictly R+ methods.
I'm not about to be shamed by a bunch of scrubs for using what works to allow my dogs to live a normal dog life. Fuck em.
Nothing I love more than a good rant about this topic. Buckle up buckaroo.
You're free to talk about whatever you'd like here for the most part from what I've seen.
Even if it's some R+ bs about how you need to build 37 gates and fences throughout your house and yard, only walk your dog at 4am to avoid triggers, have your dog on a regimen of free trade certified 100% organic artisanal trazadone, and use a front clip harness, because that's clearly better and more practical than correcting unwanted behaviours.
This sub is fairly pro balanced training, but it still doesn't delete comments like that or have an automod send you a paragraph for mentioning liver treats.
You monster. How dare you suggest that giving a dog a correction is somehow more humane than straight up killing a dog. If I correct my dog how can I make a sympathy post about how I tried absolutely everything for my little fur baby other than the one thing that could help?
I'm assuming it's the reactive dog sub, aka r/behaviouraleuthanasia. If not, I'd be surprised. If you look through my comment history pretty much every 5th one is shitting on that place. I hate it. Like...hate it and everything it's about.
Very rarely will you find someone who actually knows what they're talking about in there. It's mostly a place to share stories about how after two years of training someone was finally able to walk their dog past another dog on the other side of the street without it redirecting and taking a chunk out of their calf. Progress!
Also, BE. So, so much BE. It's depressing.
You will never meet a more reasonable, informed, rational, level headed group of people than R+ "trainers" when you mention a prong or e-collar.
They legitimately have no idea how balanced training works, and assume everyone tazes their dog into submission until it shits itself and calls it a success.
The best thing to do is focus on the reward side of balanced training. This way you can avoid automod bitching at you, they can at least somewhat relate, and it's harder for them to blast you because you're, you know, rewarding your dog to increase the frequency of behaviours you'd like to see repeated.
I'm fairly certain the majority of people in there don't have any background in dog training, and only repeat things they've heard other places.
You don't. The thing about reasoning is it requires someone to be reasonable, and as you've noticed, once you mention corrections or aversives, emotions get involved which immediately shuts down someone's ability to think logically.
Punishment comes in many forms, and it's up to the dog what it finds aversive enough to extinguish a behaviour. Some dogs will consider something as benign as a non-reinforcement marker aversive. Some dogs need you to put a slip lead on them and light their ass up until they can hear colours.
They don't consider a head halter aversive, even though, logically, it wouldn't work if the dog didn't find it aversive. Why? Because it doesn't look scary. It's ridiculous.
There is constant goalpost shifting as to what constitutes aversives in their opinion. Who cares what the dog thinks, right? I think e-collars and prongs are mean and terrible, therefore so does the dog.
They don't have any grasp on the concept of competing motivators.
You're using corrections to decrease the frequency of undesirable behaviours, and rewards to increase the frequency of desirable behaviours. This is how you mold the dog you want. It's not a difficult concept, they're just idiots.
You're 100% correct with your thinking. This is the point where you can't take it personal.
I don't know about your dog, but my dogs go nuts when they see me pull out the prong or e-collar because they know it's party time and we're about to have fun. This would not be possible for two of my dog's with strictly R+ methods.
I'm not about to be shamed by a bunch of scrubs for using what works to allow my dogs to live a normal dog life. Fuck em.