What proportion of balanced trainers use bonkers?

[cj]

Update: consensus response is that there’s a major difference in kind vis-a-vis aversive collars. Thanks!

Both prongs and ecollars benefit my dogs enormously, but I was always put off by the use of “bonkers” (a.k.a. tossing a rolled up hand towel to startle them out of unwanted behavior) and have never used one myself. At the time, I assumed that was just another tool in the balanced training kit so didn’t overthink it when sending them to a local board and train while out of the country last year. In hindsight, though, I’m second guessing.

They had a great experience overall. However, one of my boys used to love playing catch; now he just ducks. Is it likely that the bonker poisoned the game for him? (FWIW he overgeneralizes more than most dogs.) Luckily fetch and frisbee are still fair game, but are harder to play indoors on a rainy day.

More generally: in a board and train setting is there really ever a reason to favor a bonker over a stim? Or is using them at all a red flag?

ETA: I can grok the household use case where ecollars + remotes aren’t worn 24/7. But my impression is that they wear ecollars almost any time they’re uncrated in a B&T context so was a little surprised that my request to avoid bonkers was brushed off. On the other hand, I know they practice working around distractions with multiple trainers and other dogs in the space so suppose that removes the limitation that only the person holding the remote can issue a correction…?

 

[godlovesme4real]

@cj I have never used a bonker and I cannot think of any compelling reason to use a one over a properly trainer ecollar.

I dont really follow any “good” trainers who use bonkers, tbh.

 

[444chris444]

@godlovesme4real Yeah I've never even heard of this this feels very abusive. It's like a cheat way to hit your dog. If they're doing a behavior I don't like, I typically clap my hands, say "ah-ah", and give them a cue for a different, more desirable behavior.

 

[onceawaretwiceempowered]

@444chris444 Watched a few vids on it. Just YouTube stuff. It’s disgusting to watch. Poor dogs. One got bonked cause he pushed the hand that had a treat, another for rushing out of its crate after getting permission to leave the crate. I didn’t feel like looking up more vids. Hella lazy abusive training.

All I have to do with mine now at 21 months is say “mate, really?” and he generally listens. And I have used positive reinforcement and consistently intervening whenever he does something he shouldn’t. Nearly 2 years old and in that last boundary challenge stage. He’s a good boy. Quite challenging as a puppy, but my work is paying off now.

 

[444chris444]

@onceawaretwiceempowered So oddly enough, my dog has learned when I say 'ma'am!' very emphatically, that she is doing something wrong and needs to straighten up. Idk how we got here but here we are

I was just discussing this with another commenter that linked an article by the guy who came up with this method. It really feels like a step away from flat out hitting your dog. I am a balanced trainer and uphold methods that are looked down on by more 'gentle' subs but this feels too far.

 

[onceawaretwiceempowered]

@444chris444

These were the two videos. I'd call it plain hitting really.

 

[444chris444]

@onceawaretwiceempowered Omg they're both bad but that first one was awful. Seems like it would destroy any trust on the dog's part to just smack them like that out of nowhere.

And the second one was just so wrong......she called the dog out of the kennel, the dog does what she asks, and gets hit. That's a problem with whatever tool you choose to use. I think that lady just has a terrible grasp of dog training overall. At the end of the video you can see how fearful the dog's body language is.

EDIT: I was correct. I watched some more of that lady's channel. Just not a good trainer overall.

 

[thriftypineapple]

@444chris444 Oh those poor dogs, I couldn’t watch much of it because her whole attitude is revolting, entitled and lazy, she talks about the dogs being respectful, she needs to show respect to the animals she has in her care

 

[444chris444]

@thriftypineapple It's terrible. At one point the dog is cowering and she's like, "see, she's thinking 'what does Jess want me to do?' " like no, lady, she's thinking omg is she gonna hit me again?

Truly revolting. Again, this is the kind of crap that puts non FF trainers under fire. I am the farthest person from force free training but this crosses the line into abuse.

I don't even think that's her dog, someone paid her to do this crap.

 

[onceawaretwiceempowered]

@444chris444 I couldn't finish either videos. My pup nudging my hand just meant he didn't get the treat yet. He got it when he stopped trying and sat nicely. I wanted my pup to learn manners, and all it took was waiting for the correct behavior.

Was the first search results I came across on youtube, so didn't try to cherry pick some bad ones either.

What bugs me with trainers promoting aversives, is idiots like that lady will make use of them. And they will be abusive, no matter how correctly a tool is supposed to be used. (Though I suppose given the lack of understanding of timing etc, positive reinforcement would fail woefully as well, cause they wouldn't know what they're doing..)

 

[zermel]

@godlovesme4real We used one for our dog who was biting us (we didn’t throw it, we would hide it behind our back and use it to push his body) we tried everything else first. We used it a few times the first few days of trying it, then used it about once a week if he regressed, or tried pushing the limits again. And then we never had him bite us again. While he does use a muzzle at the vets office because he does snap or try to bite when he is afraid, he’s an absolute sweetheart to us in the house. I have zero regrets. It was the only tool that taught him that biting was unacceptable. We have sense had a second puppy and the way she bit as a puppy was exactly as described by all puppy training things and we never needed to escalate beyond ignoring her if she got too strong in her bites. Some dogs need the bonker, and it keeps them in a loving home. I haven’t watched any of the videos others posted here but I wanted to give you a good example of why it may be needed

 

[coreopsis]

@cj Never. Never even heard of it.

 

[444chris444]

@coreopsis

another commenter pointed me to these videos. Good grief. These both feel flat out abusive.

 

[lavister]

@444chris444 Welp, better ways to teach your dog to exit crate calmly, dayum, that is trash.

 

[444chris444]

@lavister Yeah, that lady's whole channel is pretty not great overall.

 

[lavister]

@cj I have used shakers, shrieks, etc to "interrupt" my dog with surprise. Usually followed by a command they know, but never a "soft bonker" to strike them.
Clearly positive punishment and potentially wrought with fall out for the dog.
Maybe as last resort, but seldom have a soft rolled up thing in close proximity, but my voice is always with me!

 

[444chris444]

@lavister Or clapping my hands sharply, that's always been the most effective for me. I work at a dog boarding business so I had to figure out a quick way to get a dogs attention. Besides the flat out abusive aspect, I feel like it's unreasonable to have to carry a rolled up towel around 24/7.

 

[lavister]

@444chris444 Yeah, basically setting up the dog to make an error so you can throw something at it. And who knows if the dog connects the bonk with what they did. Not a fan of waiting for my dog to screw up so I can punish it. I mean let your dog make mistakes... but oof.

 

[444chris444]

@lavister Yep. Not sure if you've watched the videos floating around this comments section, but the one with the lady is awful. She wanted to teach the dog to come out of the crate calmly, so she gave the dog the command to come out of the crate and then hit it because it 'didn't do it right'. so dog obeys you, and you hit it. Got it.

 

[lavister]

@444chris444 I watched it several months ago. Much easier ways to train a quiet release. Shockingly ineffective and cruel. A slow release because the dog is terrified as the end behavior. Got it.