Balanced to R+ and Back?

[tubal]

I have a Malinois, we do PSA and around July I started having engagement issues in training that hurt us in the sport but also at home. If there’s any sector of trainers that focuses on engagement beyond eye contact it’s the ff community so I took a deep dive into the world of positive reinforcement. Although we’ve made a ton of progress in engagement, managing arousal, vet visits, learning through play we’ve also had some set backs that have made me reconsider our training plan and going back to aversive tools*.

I’m torn because I know a lot of these things can be solved or managed using r+ methods and although the ff community loves to talk about fallout using tools, sometimes I think my dog is experiencing fallout from lack of boundaries.

Has anyone gone from balanced to r+ and back? Or r+ to LIMA? I think I’d fall more in the LIMA category. How did your dog respond? What was your reasoning for switching training techniques? Or did you go from balanced to r+ and stay there?

I enjoy learning from all sides of training as there’s always something to learn but would love to hear your thoughts.

*prong and/or e collar. I’ve used and taught them in the past but will work with another trainer on reintroducing e collar although this time more as a gas pedal than break. It will only be used with commands he already knows, all learning is done without tools and I mostly use long lines instead of going off leash due to leash laws.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@tubal You don't need to adhere to the guidelines of one specific type of training, just train the dog that's in front of you

 

[cathyj]

@tubal Drop the labels and just focus on doing what works for your dog.

There is no such thing as truly R+ only training..

And what does "balanced" actually mean anymore?

It's more a matter of "limited training" vs "unlimited".

As an "unlimited" trainer, you have every tool and method available to you. The "limited" trainers chose not to use certain methods that are proven to work...

 

[tubal]

@cathyj I love this mindset. Thank you for helping me think differently I’m going to screen shot this comment and keep it I love this way of understanding it.

 

[yakuda]

@tubal “Balanced” trainers should also know as much as possible about positive reinforcement and negative punishment based interventions.

 

[godly_wife]

@tubal You don’t need tools for structure. I am a behavior consultant that does a ton of sport dogs working on engagement/arousal control using R+ methods.

R+ does not mean permissive or lack of structure/boundaries. I’d be happy to chat through where you feel you need tools if you’d like.

 

[brit218932]

@tubal I'm not involved in any sports, nor am I dealing with Malinois intensity, but I have an... exuberant nearly 14 month old Doberman who is very pushy with boundaries and has the attention span of a squirrel...

I began strictly R+ until around 5 months old (trick training, obedience, engagement, etc) when I introduced an ecollar vibrate for corrections in the home, and a prong collar for heeling. I think I moved to the stim around 6 months, maybe 7. He was always reactive prior to using tools, but it started to get worse, so I switched back to R+ at around 9-10 months old in case I was making it worse... Long story short, at 12 months old, we discovered a medical condition was causing the bulk of his reactivity, so once we got that under control, we switched back to balanced, because he has always learned best on it. He's doing great with it so far and his reactivity hasn't worsened since switching back. If anything, it's improved.

Rewards have still been the best for engagement, though, especially toys. Making it fun is the key for him, but he also needs to know when his choices are undesired or unacceptable, because he will absolutely walk all over you if you give him the chance.

My 7 year old 15lb pomeranian, on the other hand, is super sensitive and just cannot handle any kind of correction. She will go to the ends of the earth for a treat, though, so we work strictly R+ with her.

I am a big believer in training the dog in front of you and that the dog gets to decide what's rewarding/engaging and what's aversive (as well as what's too much and what's not enough). You know your dog best, so if you think he'd benefit from balanced over R+, I'd go with what you think is better, and try not to worry about how others might be training their dog because they don't have your dog.

 

[tubal]

@brit218932 Ok very similar. A week ago he became almost overnight dog reactive. Took him to the vet and he has some soreness in his back legs which were going to look further into after the holidays. He’s on medication now and not even remotely reactive.

However without corrections he does do as he pleases. He loves to train but doesn’t want to listen when given a command in the house, which is something he never did before. I’m not asking for quick fast obedience all hours of the day but I am asking to not be knocked over after I told him to wait.

I think there was another comment that I’m looking at pressure and applying pressure incorrectly and it’s not always as black and white as I’m making it in my head. I can add pressure and still make it understood but fun for my dog. If there’s anything the force free rabbit hole taught me it’s the power of play.

 

[james685]

@brit218932 This is the same story with my Doberman, what medical condition was it?

 

[brit218932]

@james685 Hypothyroidism - the only real symptoms were excessive and explosive aggression, with adhd-like behavior. Complete panic and inability to think or process anything. Forgetting people once known. He also had a very low appetite on and off for awhile and was struggling to gain any weight - trying to get him to eat even meat was like pulling teeth.

Hes been medicated for a month now and within a week we saw change, and it's just continued to improve!

 

[zetana]

@tubal My journey has been more ‘didn’t know the names of things but took a previous dog to a compulsion trainer who didn’t use tools and thought all dogs should value praise highest’ to R+ with a hint of LIMA in that I kind of hate the term force free because I think people love to nitpick it to still that but working for a balanced trainer and being genuinely very excited about it because I think there’s a lot of value in learning different ways to approach problems even if I don’t intend to use them personally.

All that to say: I’m curious as to what the issues you’re having with your dog are! I can agree with you that lack of boundaries can be a huge issue in a lot of R+ dogs but I don’t necessarily think those boundaries need to be physically aversive — not that I’m trying to discourage you from using tools! I’m a proponent of train the dog in front of you but I’m just nosy about what the issue is lol

 

[tubal]

@zetana The main one is routine care like nail clipping. I was using the cooperative care method of touching his feet and him opting in for a while but he never consented to it and wouldn’t consent to it. He doesn’t like his feet touched but it’s a fact of life. I now touch his feet daily and give him a lot of praise after, I’ll eventually incorporate the Dremel but will probably start with some other things first.
The point being while I love the idea of him consenting and opting in and out of an exercise, I also know he will choose the path of least resistance. If there’s anything r+ taught me it’s to teach through play. I’m glad I went down the rabbit hole because it forced me to think of other ways to train without tools and not to rely on equipment. As well as train a dog that I got at 2 with training on e collar and prong that he can learn outside tools as well.

I think there’s incredible uses for r+ training, I’ve seen the benefits but in this sport that I know he loves it is hard to do anything entirely force free and when we work with his decoy he thrives under pressure, I just need to learn to utilize it correctly.

 

[zetana]

@tubal Man I fully feel you lol my last dog was very hard headed and responded really well to things that my current dog would shrink away from and never trust again over and it’s forced me to learn and rethink things a lot. Learning how to incorporate play into training is huge and IMO not enough people on either side do it enough, I meet so many R+ folks who are their own enemies bc they have high drive dogs and refuse to deviate from food or make sessions more fun and exciting for a dog who absolutely thrives on that kind of energy.

Have you considered using a scratch board at all? It won’t fix the issue of him not liking his feet being touched but a lot of handlers I know with more sensitive dogs who don’t like being handled have had a lot of success with those over clippers or a dremel.

 

[tubal]

@zetana Yes I do use a scratch board, I also let him swim and play at the beach to get all his nails at the right length. His nails need care as much as he doesn’t want it. I need to figure out a way to include play with pressure. Maybe some of the people mentioned will be helpful.

 

[nasb]

@tubal R+ is not better for engagement. Good training is better for engagement. You need to learn a lot more about drive. Also I get the idea you arent using pressure properly. Your training is probably also not fun for the dog.

Look at trainers like Michael Ellis (leerburg) and Dave Kroyer if you want to watch the more affordable ones.

Btw in igp, having a dog that's engaged and look good is crucial to get good placements. The top trainers are the balanced ones.

 

[tubal]

@nasb I get what you’re saying. I think the r+ stuff made our training better because everything was fun for him and in turn it made him want to engage with me so you’re probably right that it had less to do with it being r+ and more to do with the play aspect.
I love micheal Ellis and have heard great things about Dave Kroyer I’ll look into both for using pressure. I can agree that it is probably something to do with me

 

[tubal]

@nasb Yeah finding any r+ trainers doing bite sports is difficult. The people in my club are a little heavy handed, they’re the other side of the extreme. I’ll start reading more into use of pressure and it may get me where I need to be. Thank you

 

[nasb]

@tubal You are looking at it very fragmented. Look at their entire training system. You will see overlaps with r+ for sure. R+ is very valuable in training and it should probably be around 80-90% of your training. But its part of the entire training system, not a fragment. NePoPo is also worth looking into, I learned a lot about dog training from that system .

 

[tubal]

@nasb I can definitely see that. I think going from one extreme of tools all the time to another extreme of force free is probably really confusing for my dog. I got my dog when he was 2 and he was already trained on prong and ecollar and I took classes and worked at a training kennel learning from others around that stuff but I don’t think I ever took the time to truly understand it. I’ve always believed in training the dog in front of you when it comes to other peoples dogs but my own I always second guess if I’m doing it right. I think I need to actually put labels away and really focus on learning what I want about dogs but train MY dog with what works for him. Thank you for the insight!

 

[mattburns]

@tubal I think all these labels are causing you problems. Do what works for your dog