doodle studs and furnishing genes

[william3]

First off i know there is alot of hate for breeding doodles, i am not here to argue your opinion on the mix we all have very strong opinions about certain breeds, mixes etc but this sub is for education first! and ive seen quite a few doodle lurkers looking for info and there is some imoportant information i feel i need to share.

I have been breeding doodles since 2005. I have seen their growth in popularity and there is alot of mis information and bad breeding out there as people are trying to get into the market. this post is about how to breed/ stud a doodle and getting your desired coat from your pups.

doodles have what is called a furnishg gene FF, this is respobsible for the curly coat and the facial beard. most doodles have 1 copy of this gene 1 from the poodle parent and 0 from the mom retriever lab etc. some second gernations have two FF and you can have your stud/ female tested for this. if a doodle has 1 copy of this gene they will have a curly coat and facial beard. (I only recomend studding a doodle if they have FF but i would not recomend studding a doodle) However!!! if you breed a doodle to a doodle and both parents have 1 copy of the gene, this will result in half the litter not having the F gene this means half the litter will have an impropper coat. if one parent has FF then all pups will have the gene, Here is an article to better explain

it is best to be safe to never breed your doodle to a doodle, breed to a poodle as poodles always have 2 copies of this gene.

People say the breed coat is "unstable" because you cannot predict coats, this is incorect its the result of incorrect breeding. if a breeder knows about the furnishing gene and has bred their doodle to a poodle they will have the gene for that standard doodle coat.

I am seeing an increase in impropper coats from other breeders for 1 big reason 1) doodle studs are cheaper than poodle studs so inexperienced breeders are opting for the doodle studs. these breeders will then tell their customer "the coats cant be predicted" to void responsibility for selling a dog the customer didnt want usually out of ignorance or carelessness.

 

[lumiere]

@william3 You do seem very knowledgeable and as long as your health testing for both the poodle and lab standards I have no issues.

Question though, you say the best option is to breed a doodle with a poodle. Why not just breed a lab with a poodle? I feel like that is more predictable.

Also, how hard is it to find a poodle stud or even a doodle that has all the necessary health checks, from a responsible breeder, and willing to stud/give breeding rights? Most responsible breeders won't even consider studding their poodle with a doodle and/or other breed.

Mainly just curious but do you offer full breeding rights with the doodles you produce or are you very restricted on that?

Edit: not Golden. Lab

 

[william3]

@lumiere Thank you, we try so hard to make sure everything is up to standard and our pups are healthy and consistant.

we do sell each pup with breeding rights, we also are here to answer any question thee breeders may have to ensure there is a standard and education.

you are correct the easier option is to breed a retriever to a poodle. this requires less research into genetics and can be a good place to start.

but when you breed a poodle to a goldendoodle you will get a half and half mix. this produces a wavy almost beach body coat that will be low shed not no shed, when people see the typical goldendoodle its not a first generation its a second. so first generation goldendoodle bred to a poodle. this way you get no shed and tighter curls.

people want no shed and you can only guarntee no shed if the pup has more than 50% poodle.

when we pursue a stud we ask for their genetics, health records, and regstration almost all studs have this. if its a natural tie we ask for a std test if they cant provide this do not use them!.

I think its intersting you mention poodle breeders wont breed with others because ive had the oposite experience, the poodle studs in my area actually love the doodles they have made so much money in the last decade off of doodles. all the poodle studs in my area will stud to anyone and do not discriminate upon breed. i have never come across anyone who said no.

to find reputable studs we have a local classifieds and all studs will post their listings on there we have always been able to find one. ive heard in other areas people will use facebook marketplace. if you cant find a stud in your area you can have frozen semen sent to your vet and pursue artificial methods. this is good for rural areas.

in the last 5 years we worked with a reputable poodle AKC breeder to purchase our own studs.

 

[caitlynlovesjesus]

@william3 Your knowledge is very impressive, but I’m not so happy with what you’ve described here.

Selling each puppy with breeding rights is a giant red flag to me.

“Poodle studs love the money they make off the doodles”. Unethical breeding at its finest, breeding for profit.

I would love to know what AKC poodle breeder you’re using. Surely not one that shows in conformation.

How do you prove your dogs’ temperaments? Do you compete in any venues? What about their structure?

And since you’re insistent on back breeding to poodles… why not just get a poodle?

 

[william3]

@caitlynlovesjesus The point of my post is not to argue or discuss my girls or advertise my buisness but to provide information i feel is lacking especially since doodle and mix breeders get bullied off this sub. We all have very strong opinions about our dogs and that's wonderful.

I do think its interesting people think making money off of dogs is unethical, as someone in the breeding world I can tell you the money people make off of show quality poodles is insane! I will not provide the names of the organizations we work with as I fo t want anyone to be bregaded.

These people charge for their quality dogs, they dont sell at cost. No one sells at cost, money has to go back into the buisness which includes care, upkeep, and time

 

[caitlynlovesjesus]

@william3 So you don’t have proof of any reputable doodle breeder? Even if not your own kennel, no one else? Strange. Here’s a challenge: link me a doodle kennel on OFA that has all of their breeding stock tested with definitive hips, definitive elbows, heart, and eyes yearly. Because that’s the tests they would need to complete all tests. I have several poodle breeders that do… surely, it can’t be hard for you to provide proof of a single doodle breeder doing that if people breed them ethically.

Really? No, reputable breeders don’t. Handlers do, but that’s their full time job. I own a poodle myself and we do dog sports and therapy. People do not make much money, in fact, they usually lose money.

While making money off of dogs in general is not a bad thing, breeding for purely profit is.

Doodle breeders sell for much more than well-bred purebreds sometimes. Which is interesting, because they don’t have to pay money for entry fees in conformation or sports.

You didn’t answer my question about proving your dogs… no dog that is unproven should be bred.

 

[william3]

@caitlynlovesjesus Thank you for you opinion and time as stated this is not about my buisness but information I feel is important for doodle breeders. Thank you

 

[kjcolt]

@caitlynlovesjesus Here’s one:

https://moonrisekingdomaussiedoodles.com

And here’s their health testing as listed on the OFA database:

https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2146803

https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2116910

All dogs are tested to CHIC standards for the respective breeds in the mix. They also title all of their dogs too. Their purebred poodle is a conformation champion while the doodles do dog sports in mixed breed friendly venues. I’ve actually also met this breeder’s dogs at a dog show. Their poodle is certainly not bottom of the barrel and even my diehard poodle snob of a Tio would have liked him. Having seen their poodle in person for myself, I can say that he is overall a good example of the breed. He has a much nicer front assembly than most poodles you see in the ring these days. And since the owner shows her dogs naturally and without corrective grooming or hairspray, what you see is actually what you get in terms of structure.

And I get that you hate mixes, but just because you personally don’t like something doesn’t make it unethical. Breeding often isn’t as black and white as most people think it is.

 

[caitlynlovesjesus]

@kjcolt I don’t hate mixes.

I know of this breeder. She is leagues above other doodlers. It is of note that she did not complete cardiac testing prior to breeding Sparkle, but that’s still way better than not doing it at all.

I also find it commendable that she titles her dogs.

Do I think her cross has a purpose? No.

But is she doing everything she can? Yes, pretty much.

I don’t like that she tested cardiac late and I don’t like that we don’t know where some of her dogs are from, but it’s a good start!

Edited to add: you have to understand, it’s exhausting to see people say “MINE HEALTH TESTS” and then it doesn’t go through. We also have others who claim to do everything right but will straight up lie about pedigree, choose not to prove their dogs, crap on poodle temperament, etc. That’s where the frustration comes from.

 

[kjcolt]

@caitlynlovesjesus I definitely do get that frustration. Doodles are riddled with utterly terrible breeders who are great at nothing more marketing themselves to the public. It’s only reasonable to be suspicious of doodle breeders. Or even a little angry when it comes to those who know better, but knowingly choose to deceive the public rather than doing better.

At the same time, I see the other side too. Doodles and other mixes are certainly a sore point for most people in poodles. And it’s not without reason as byb doodles are everywhere.

However, I feel like the doodle debate and doodle hate can be a little unreasonable at times. It’s to the point where the Poodle Pedigree Database will remove any dogs who contributed to doodles (as well as that dog’s entire family line) from the database, regardless of how important that information may be for poodle breeders. They’re willing to throw away invaluable data simply out of spite. That kind of pettiness is harmful for not just the few doodlers who are trying to do things right, but also damaging to the future of poodles as well. It’s selfish for someone to put their own hatred for something above the future of the breed they claim to love. The doodle hate has gotten to the point where we’re willing to sabotage ourselves just to spite crossbreeders. And that’s not okay.

Honestly, I feel like we need to put aside our biases, be willing to listen to the other side and have a reasonable conversation. Not just about doodles but about the more pressing problems such as the cheating epidemic in the AKC poodle ring, the precarious status of the Spoo and the larger systemic problems facing closed studbook breeds as a whole.

 

[caitlynlovesjesus]

@kjcolt I totally agree that the hate can be unreasonable. I don’t see any reason why breeders CAN’T be like Moonrise, tbh. There’s zero reason to not show and prove your purebred stock, and there’s other venues besides AKC that allow unaltered mixed dogs to compete.

I’m just really really sick of those who definitely know better but choose not to do what they’re supposed to. Not like Moonrise, but a specific two other doodle organizations that actively lie about pedigree and don’t do full testing while advertising the opposite.

Closed stud books are a problem. We do have betterbred, now, so diversity is something poodle people are pushing for. The recent inclusion of MCP in breedings is helping thanks to UKC breeder efforts, as those lines have drifted rather far from the solids at this point.

Yeah the poodle pedigree database removing dogs used in doodle breeding is stupid, I agree.

I think all venues are corrupt to a degree, but I personally wouldn’t show confo in AKC. I hate the amount of work that goes into the hair. UKC likes a natural dog better, which is how it should be in the first place.

 

[lumiere]

@william3 Like somebody else said, you know a lot about this and that's impressive but there are some red flags.

I wouldn't sell with breeding rights. You know a lot and that's good but I wouldn't trust anybody else to breed a dog that I produced unless they had strict rules in the contract. Like you said, there are a lot of bad doodle breeders out there. They see that they can make a large profit off their doodle and start breeding. You don't want to add to the issue. You should really not give breeding rights. It shouldn't effect you in any way besides being an extra piece to the contract.

It also does seem fishy that the poodle studs in your area are happy to stud with any breed. It's good that you've looked into all the health aspects of the stud, but I am curious is you've ever found one who has titles? Conformation, agility, rally, obedience, etc.? I would even accept therapy or service dog titles.

Also, do you take back any unwanted puppies? Just curious if you do

Okay. Now onto the happier comments lol

It makes more sense now that you've explained it about mixing a poodle with a doodle. The fur would be more poodle-like and less/no shedding. Higher maintenance but as long as the owners know what they're getting into that's fine.

I also never thought about STD testing the male stud. I feel like that should have been obvious but it never occurred to me. Thanks for that.

 

[chrishudges]

@lumiere A Doodle isn’t a breed and is not recognized by any kennel club so therefore there is no registration limited or otherwise.So anyone can buy one and breed it regardless of its soundness and their competence.

 

[lumiere]

@chrishudges Are you saying they have to be AKC registered to have any sort of breeding restrictions? That doesn't sound right.

I will also add that ik doodles are not a breed. I'm not advocating for doodles and I have my own opinion on them. I just enjoy learning more about dog breeding in general and I have my own questions for OP

 

[chrishudges]

@lumiere The way breeding rights work is when you get your dogs registration through the kennel club that represents the breed.You either get limited registration which means no breeding rites or full registration which gives you breeding rites.You can still breed the dog but it will not be able to be registered.With mixed breeds they are non-registrable dogs and there is nothing to stop a person from breeding them.There could be a personal contract but no BYB is going to spend the money and take someone to court for backyard breeding their backyard bread dog.They don’t care after the point of sale.A reputable breeder with champion bloodlines will only give full registration with them as a co owner unless you have experience with the breed and belong to and are active in the kennel club.They need to see that your doing all genetic and OFA testing not making bad decisions.Signing away breeding rights to just anyone to breed mutts is a major red flag and a sign of backyard breeder.If you have good genetics and a champion bloodline.You don’t want them ruined by idiots.

 

[lumiere]

@chrishudges That makes sense. Defiently good to know. Thanks. I'll look more into that so I understand it better

 

[william3]

@lumiere Omg yes std testing for natural ties is a.must, there is a local breeder that lost all ger girls and it took her years to rebuild. It can be devastating.

And yes most of the poodles in our area that stud are show quality with titles, more so the toy poodles than the standards. weve never recieved any guff from them and have become very good friends. But this is just my area. That's actually how we got into breeding. An older gentleman showed and bred red show poodles wanted to see what would happen if he bred his male with a small retriever, he was very kind and charged us 1$ we framed it for him and he became a very close family friend.

Poodles are high demand studs but very few people in my area breed poodles, I'd the studs in my area said no to other breeds they would make no money, it's a business and saying no to a non poodle is leaving money on the table.

We do take back dogs if the situation occurs. In our contract we have a no surrender policy. If the pup ever needs to be rehomed even to the neighbor down the street we need to know we keep track of where they all go. And also it is to never be surrendered to a shelter. This has only happened once but the family could no longer care for the dog, this includes a full refund excluding the deposite. We have a list of people who are interested in adult dogs and we found him a new home.

Some breeders restrict breeding rights we personally do not, some also sell breeding rights this will usually include the dogs registration, testing etc... we provide this anyway. It's up to the breeders discression

 

[treesd]

@william3 It was always my understanding that you can’t restrict breeding rights, nor register specialty dogs with the ACK. There are no red flags, it just can’t be done. I mean, I guess she could try to stipulate into ever contract that they couldn’t breed unless they bought rights, but there’s no way to track. She’d have to try and watch every person she sold a dog to and then sue them. It’d be almost impossible and very expensive and labor intensive.
At least, that was my understanding.
Otherwise, there are many very reputable poodle breeders that are willing to sell their AKC registered pups, it’s breeding rights, to a doodle breeder. They are running a business. Most are not snobs. My understanding is some are, but not all.

 

[caitlynlovesjesus]

@treesd You can restrict breeding rights in AKC using limited registration. People don’t always listen but it can be done.

Contractually is good, I’ve seen people take puppy buyers to court for breaking contract (usually on breeding).

Except that breeding reputably means you’re breeding to better the breed, not to run a business. To me, those breeders aren’t breeding for anything but profit. I almost guarantee you she’s using bottom of the barrel stock. She probably won’t actually share the breeder, though. Nor her own kennel.

 

[treesd]

@caitlynlovesjesus I meant specialty breeds as a whole. I was under the impression that they aren’t AKC registrable. The poodle sire would be, of course, and/or the golden dam would be, of course, but not the offspring. Again, not everyone has the attitude that there is anything wrong with specialty breeds, hence, why they exist, and why there is such a great market for them.