Warning grumble or “talking” grumble?

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wayofthepromise

New member
Hey y’all. I just found this group… by way of some fb “dog daddy” video (no opinion on that guy, as this is the FIRST time I’ve seen any videos with him in it.), which turned into a YouTube reel rabbit hole… and boom. 2 hours later. Here I am. Long time reddit lurker.. super occasional commenter/poster! On to my… question…

We have a 6 yo intact male German shepherd (from a backyard breeder of sorts. Both her dogs are AKC registered blah blah blah) - his name is Jet.

Jet is VERY much his mommas dog (ME!) and sort of.. tolerates my husband. (Probably bc husband is away from home 3-4 days a week and then home for 2-8 depending on schedule. Airline pilot life. 🥴)

When husband plays with him, loves on him.. even when Jet initiates said interaction, he does this low whiny/grumbley GROWL. Sometimes teeth showing, sometimes not.

I think this is “knock it off, dad!” Husband thinks the same OCCASIONALLY. But more often then not, “he’s just talking, stop worrying!” (I often tell husband - “I don’t care how long we’ve had him since he was 8 weeks old! he’s going to bite you in the dang FACE one of these days…”

I don’t have a video to attach.. but will attempt to illicit it from him and make a video. Husband is currently on a trip. Enroute to Canada.. or Mexico… or the Bahamas… I can’t keep his schedule straight 🤷🏼‍♀️

*Jet has done a month long board and train approx 2 years ago for adverse behaviors (VERY reactive to PEOPLE. Aggression towards PEOPLE. This began after having to board him at the vet for approx 7 days while husbands dad had major brain surgery. He was about 2 when that started!)

Sorry for the long novel. I want to make sure I add everything that I can think of!


 
@wayofthepromise You could take a video and post in r/dogadvice ! Or a video, upload it somewhere and post it here as a link, it might be better to judge :) It could be either honestly, it depends on his body language.

Also FYI... dog daddy is hated by both balanced and r+/Lima trainer side that tells you anything. He's awful and what he does, is pure abuse.
 
@wayofthepromise I read the comment about the language, it could be a warning growl. Does the pooch have any way it usually shows when it wants pets? My dog will come to me and shove his head under my hand brutally and I use that to check if he wants me to pet him or if I should continue!

Also dog tails being down could indicate relaxed body language. Examplw, here: https://moderndogmagazine.com/articles/how-read-your-dogs-body-language/415 But there could be micro clues the dog is giving as a no, slight tongue flicks, whale eyes, moving head away, etc.

The issue with Dog Daddy and e.g. Ceaear Milan is they appeal to the masses that don't know better. They see quick results and believe that's how it's done... Avoid Dog Daddy at all costs though, he literally has everyone hate him, even a lot of trainers that only mostly or only aversives. If you're both hated by aversive, balanced, R+ and LIMA trainer, you're doing something wrong. Suthend Dog Training and Jff Gellman are two other examples, people from all camps dislike them. G*llman generally is hated by everyone for what he does to poor dogs. I don't recommend looking it up.
 
@passat61 YES!! When he WANTS to be petted/loved on etc, he will SHOVE his head under a hand/arm/ARMPIT with FORCE. And continue to do it until he gets what he wants!!

Every time I’ve been around when he does the growling/grumble thing, his tail has been wagging and he’s relaxed. There are, however these micro clues - as you called them on occasion - the licking of the lips mostly.

As for the dog daddy idiot (sorry. Gotta calls them as I sees them!) I clicked on a link to just SEE what it was all about. Basically “sign up for this. Fill out your info (nothing about the DOG!) Pay $400 for a 3 hour group session and hopefully we’ll be able to help you” - sorry. Ain’t nobody’s super reactive dog gonna be “FIXED” in ONE 3 hour session!! insert eye roll

There have been some good suggestions in other comments on things to read/lookup/trainers to read about too! Thank you for taking the time to post!
 
@passat61 Finally figured out how to upload link (thank you to the YouTube channel I’ve had for years but have never actually USED!) this is the one I JUST took.. the other one (from this morning) is in my original post!

 
@wayofthepromise
I just watched this one, so when he grumbles, he starts also to lick his lips and move his head away from his hand when he tries to pet like certain sides of his face. His pant also becomes bigger at some point, they're stress signals possibly. Jet might want to be pet, but dislikes the spots that are being pet. A lot of dogs don't like the area of their mouth and face touched actually, they often prefer "chin scratches" that are actually chest scritches. It's the floof area under their face. When your hubby starts to touch his face, Jet keeps moving his head away, which are possible signals that he doesn't like this.

Jet seems to be excited and it doesn't look like he necessarily dislikes it, but he might be confused. Maybe tell your husband, if Jet does this again (grabbing his arm), to not pet him and see what the pooch does. If Jet shoves his hand under your husbands hand, then go for the pet.

This one reminds me of my pooch when I pet him and he want sto play, he grumbles like that too - considering Jets history, it could be a possible warning sign, but I think he mostly is just confused why he is getting pet when he wants to play.

So overall, it might be good to reach to a trainer out that's specialised in bogy language and certified. I think Jet might be sending confused and mixed signals, which can be hard for us to understand and I think having an expert weigh in could really help.

When he went to board and train, what kind of training methods were used? Were you allowed to visit Jet?
 
@passat61 The board and train… while it was beneficial (for a while) there was ZERO follow up. I have no idea what they did as far as techniques or training stuff… we were NOT allowed to visit. I got a short video or quick blurry photo a couple times… and that was after pestering for a couple days. Yes. I may be “that” type of pet parent. 🤷🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️ the only thing they said when we picked him up was “come to the classes” which we did for l 3-4 classes - but then I started working nights, and the classes were 1.5-2 hours away on the nights I had to work. Those classes we did attend were for any one and everyone and focused mostly on basic obedience (sit. Leave it. Leash walking) which Jet had/has down really well by then.

I noticed that once husband went upstairs, and Jet was wanting to play with his piggy (the orange or green toy in the video) when I went towards him, his eyes LOCKED on me.. he would snatch piggy and beat feet across the room tail flying and but almost touching the ground running thru the living room… growling the whole time. Then come back about halfway between where he was and where I was standing - drop piggy and then sort of - wait for me to go for piggy again. Rinse and repeat over and over until he got tired of me not chasing him down to try and take the pig. This is definitely how Jet plays with ME… wondering if something that husband is doing/saying/exuding (🤭) that is throwing Jet into confusion.
 
@wayofthepromise Well fuck, that doesn't sound good - sorry for the language. But a baord and train that does not do follow ups and doesn't update you when you ask, that's a huge red flag. I don't meant this as judging you btw., we all do what we think is the best. It's just that often board and trains who... well. Don't treat the dogs the best, do it in such a way.

I mostly asked, because I wonder if they may have potentially used aversives, which just lead the dog to hide things instead of learning how to deal with the issues that casue the reactivity/aggression. It can lead to dogs giving confusing signals, because sadly too many board and trains just teach the dogs they're not allowed to give signals at all. Maybe check the name if people have complained about this before or if they may have been charged with something! It could help you in the future of Jets training.

It is possible that the way your husband approaches/plays with him could confuse him! Especially if he is used to a certain play routine. In the video with the toy, Jet wanted to play instead of being pet - at least I'm pretty sure! My dog sometimes similarly expresses himself in this way if he wants to paly and I pet him instead lol
 
@passat61 No worries on the language!! I said the same thing when it took me 3 days to be able to get a “how’s it going?” Message to the lady who was training Jet. “What the fuck did I just do with my dog?!?!” The reviews for them were all positive, and there is a repeat as necessary for the “lifetime of the dog” BUT I hesitate to take him back for fear of the same kinda things happening.. except NOW he seems even more set in his ways!

I just read husband your comment, and talked to him about scratching/petting locations… the change in Jet was IMMEDIATE - gone was the grumble… replaced with head butting and nuzzling “PET ME!” Hints.
 
@wayofthepromise After reading all the horror stories and experiences, I will never board and train my pooch... It's also extremely expensive. I would not take him back honestly, especially because you weren't allowed to visit and didn't even show you properly what they did so you could utilise it at home. Like... If you ask how your pooch is, they should tell you and send you a video/photo. This makes me believe it was heavily aversive, that's when they shy away from showing owners and just say "come to classes" which are often basic obedience classes. Get a certified R+/LIMA trainer and behaviourist on board if he is extremely set on his way, but it possible depending on how deep it runs, it may just be a matter of managing Jet :(

That's good! Media and what not often makes us believe certain spots are 100% love pet spots for dogs when they actually aren't. Quite a few dogs as an example don't like butt scritches. Chin scritches too, because it's so close to their mouth. I'm glad that this has helped and that Jet certainly likes the other spots more!

Another good example of media fooling people when it comes to this: Birds. Birds should only be pet and scritched on the head and feet. Everything else is no-go, as petting e.g. their backs or wings is us... sexually touching the birdie.

Media however, displays it different, that birds can be pet everywhere, which is not okay.
 
@passat61 Lawd. You right on the “expensive” part. Fairly sure we paid $2300 for a 10 day board and train… which turned into a couple days over a month. The fact that I had to go thru like the owner of the place who would then send a smoke signal of sorts to Jets trainer. Ugh. I lived for those couple second videos or that furry butt doing recall from across their backyard off lead! 🥹 do I think he learned some things, YES. Do I think WE should have learned the same stuff? HELL YESH! Lesson learned.

I feel like a whole new world has opened up for husband and Jet… just watching them stand in the hallway… Jet head butting the crap out of his hand and NO GROWLING being heard is cause for excitement! 🙌🏼 we will still be looking for a behaviorist or referral from the vet for such to work on the other… issues. But at least that’s a start!

We took both dogs to the park this morning (we also have a chow/husky mix - who looks like a chow but is legit the most tolerant, love muffin of a dog I’ve EVER met!) and I had husband walk Jet… which… lasted for about 10 minutes. So. THAT is a work in progress. Jet is a perfect gentleman on leash with me. Sits when I stop. Slows down with I simply say “hey.” Or “slow.” And gets in the grass when there’s people walking by and sits. With husband at the helm… lawd. It’s complete anarchy. He’s trying to pull, running trying to get to ME, stopping to sniff and pee on anything. Like I said. Jet as a whole… combined with husband. A total work in progress!!

Thanks for listening… and giving your insight!!

Ps. As for birdies. I’ve held ONE bird in my life. My dads African gray… something… (I was 10!?) and it pooped on me and tried to bite my nose - and all I was doing was standing there with my little noodle of an arm outstretched like I was told. That was the end of my love affair with any feathered friends. 🥴
 
@wayofthepromise I'm so sorry that it was so problematic to get updates on your pooch and you weren't given any tools (I don't mean aversives, training techniques is what I meant) on how to further manage his behaviour.

I am so glad that Jet seems to enjoy himself more and that he isn't growling anymore at your hubby! Maybe he can also try different things, e.g. Jet approaches him with a toy, instead of petting Jet, see if he wants to play! It gives the pooch some trust when it comes to approaching him and getting whtat he'd like to do. Obviously, don't always give in when the dog wants to play, but more like: Give Jet the option to get what he wants in that moment sometimes. If you want to pet, check if he's cool with it, if yes, continue, if not, stop and leave the pooch be :)

It seems like he might be more intune with you when you walk him instead of your husband. Definitely something worth to train with them, but also if you can lead Jet, I'd suggest doing so - less stress involved for everyone!

No problem!! I am no trainer, but after owning also a human aggressive dog (well, fostered him rather) and my current dog, I did learn some things when it comes to rumbling and growling when petting. Especially, because we had to reteach my foster how to actually show warning signs.

Also yea... Birds can be asshats lol But I love them and want one one day anyways.
 
@passat61 Husband just said: “don’t tell anyone I fly airplanes for a living… but I can’t talk to my dog in his right language. That’s embarrassing.”

Welp. Babe. You right on that one… you fly multi million dollar aircraft for a living, but can’t manage to speak in doggo love language. (Or figure out to pause the washing machine. Or start the dishwasher) but okay. My lips are SEALED! 🤫🤐😬
 
@passat61 Lawd. You right on the “expensive” part. Fairly sure we paid $2300 for a 10 day board and train… which turned into a couple days over a month. The fact that I had to go thru like the owner of the place who would then send a smoke signal of sorts to Jets trainer. Ugh. I lived for those couple second videos or that furry butt doing recall from across their backyard off lead! 🥹 do I think he learned some things, YES. Do I think WE should have learned the same stuff? HELL YESH! Lesson learned.

I feel like a whole new world has opened up for husband and Jet… just watching them stand in the hallway… Jet head butting the crap out of his hand and NO GROWLING being heard is cause for excitement! 🙌🏼 we will still be looking for a behaviorist or referral from the vet for such to work on the other… issues. But at least that’s a start!

We took both dogs to the park this morning (we also have a chow/husky mix - who looks like a chow but is legit the most tolerant, love muffin of a dog I’ve EVER met!) and I had husband walk Jet… which… lasted for about 10 minutes. So. THAT is a work in progress. Jet is a perfect gentleman on leash with me. Sits when I stop. Slows down with I simply say “hey.” Or “slow.” And gets in the grass when there’s people walking by and sits. With husband at the helm… lawd. It’s complete anarchy. He’s trying to pull, running trying to get to ME, stopping to sniff and pee on anything. Like I said. Jet as a whole… combined with husband. A total work in progress!!

Thanks for listening… and giving your insight!!

Ps. As for birdies. I’ve held ONE bird in my life. My dads African gray… something… (I was 10!?) and it pooped on me and tried to bite my nose - and all I was doing was standing there with my little noodle of an arm outstretched like I was told. That was the end of my love affair with any feathered friends. 🥴
 
@wayofthepromise What is the rest of Jet's body language saying? My dog has the same growl for "warning" and "play," but the body language is vastly different- looks for that. If your husband backs off, just Jet stop grumbling and re-engage? If your husband keeps pressing, does Jet get worse or almost seem to try and ignore him in shut down mode? If Jet initiates, is he also sneezing? Is Jet easy to redirect towards toys to play with?
 
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