level 4(?) bite, no warning. Need advice please

[davecb]

@scottwilson

He has snapped at multiple people.

Now that the dog has shown that he will bite, and will mean it, you have a few choices.

One is keep the dog and don't, under any circumstances, allow him to interact with any people who are not you and your partner. Do not try to see if he's better, or assume he likes so-and-so. People come over, this dog is in a crate, in a locked room, and no introductions are made, ever, for any reason. When you walk him, or take him anywhere, he needs to, again with no exceptions, be muzzled.

Don't let anyone tell you that with some tasty yummy treats, you will be able to make this dog safe around strangers. The risk is just huge.

Or you return him to the rescue group, with full disclosure. While they may foster him to adopt him out again, odds are they will euthanize him.

The fact that he's 90 pounds, means that if he bites again, he has a good chance of permanently injuring someone, or worse.

Do you guys rent or own? Owning this dog, going forward, could make a devastating impact on your finances if you own, or ability to find a rental if you do rent.

My partner thinks this would be a massive trauma for the dog, he was very unhappy and stressed at the rescue. My partner also thinks it would be a disservice to any future adopters as we are not sure if the rescue would fully disclose things to future adopters.

I understand what your partner is saying, but the bottom line is, a dog who bit under those circumstances, especially a big dog, is just a huge liability to keep on as a pet.

You guys have to weigh that. Keep the dog and understand the risks of keeping the dog, and what you need to do to keep everyone safe, or return the dog to rescue, feel awful about it, but don't lose your home or your apartment over it.

 

[scottwilson]

@davecb agree 100% with this. We own our property and have 5 acres in the country, so no worries about renting. And "D" is a family member who is actually being very gracious about this so he's not going to sue fortunately. But I agree the liability aspect is something I'm not sure my partner is taking seriously.

 

[davecb]

@scottwilson

But I agree the liability aspect is something I'm not sure my partner is taking seriously.

Well that sort of sucks. I'd really talk to them and have them understand that while "D" was ok winding up in the ER, the average person is not, and that average person may sue you guys.

If you have to keep this dog, make sure that they're onboard in keeping the dog locked up if people come over.

And if they have people over when you're at work or whatever, and you think they won't follow a strict protocol for keeping guests safe, I wouldn't keep this dog.

 

[ljubomir38]

@scottwilson Let’s be real: the rescue lied to you and placed a dog with huge behavior issues who likely lacked proper socialization as a puppy and may be from suspect breeding. They really absolutely dropped the ball here. You can work with a behavioralist, but be aware that this likely will cost in the thousands of dollars to see any improvement at all. And you will likely never have the dog you asked for- it will always be a matter of tolerating and managing these issues. If you’ve really strongly bonded with this dog and are willing to spend up to the next 10 or more years living your life where you’re having to manage this dog with issues, no one will stop you and that’s very kind and generous, but if it were me and the dog were something I’d recently brought home, I’d really REALLY be considering giving it back to the rescue. This dog should not have been placed in your home, and frankly a dog who acts like this is a good candidate for behavioral euthanasia. Perhaps progress can be made, but it’s the rare person who has the desire and knowledge to manage a dog like this, and it’s clear to me that this is absolutely not what you signed up for. It disgusts that so many rescues pretty much entrap ignorant people who really only want a nice family pet with these nightmare dogs who are going to have severe issues against the adopter’s wishes. I don’t think this is a problem that can be “fixed” in the sense you have a trainer spend a few hours with you and you’ll have an entirely different dog. This dog will always require a lot of work, management, and delicate touch to ensure your own safety and those you bring into your home, and likely isn’t a dog who can be in public and do normal dog things. It’s up to you to decide if that’s really the situation you want to find yourself in and if you have the time and money to invest into getting “ok” results. If it were me, I would not have a dog that bit unpredictably in my home. It’s just a matter of time before even more people get hurt.

 

[scottwilson]

@ljubomir38 To be fair, I don't think this was completely intentional or malicious on the part of the rescue. They did mention some of the behaviors they had noticed but it was downplayed and we weren't told everything. Not sure if I'm really going to reach out to the rescue or not, since my partner really wants to try to manage this and see if we can safely keep this dog. Which I guess means he's really okay with not having children because we're already in our 30's...and this dog will never be around children as far as I'm concerned. I agree this is not a fixable issue, I'm hoping a behaviorist will help us with better management strategies and insight into triggers.

 

[ljubomir38]

@scottwilson Okay, based on what you said about your attempt to state that you’d asked for an easy going, sociable dog, I assumed they hadn’t disclosed this to you. To be frank, most shelters are overwhelmingly filled with BBMs of questionable temperaments and many with behavior issues, and I have seen so many people just trying to adopt a normal dog instead getting baited and switched into taking a frankly nightmare dog home instead because some rescues are at the point where they are so dedicated to “no kill” that they think it’s better to lie to get a dog homed than they care about what the adopters want or need, even if the type of family that wants to deal with a terrified and human aggressive dog that is unpredictable and scary is essentially nil. If you don’t feel the dog was misrepresented that’s good, I just think rescues really need to look at themselves and what they’re doing in situations like this, because it only takes one experience like this to convince someone to never rescue again. I don’t think I would take the risk of rescuing outside of a specific breed rescue because I’ve read too many stories like this. A dog that bites is a big deal- it can cost you money and is a legal liability, and now that you’ve figured out it will bite you absolutely need to make sure it has zero access to any outside people or other peoples dogs, because it isn’t fair to them to risk being attacked out of nowhere. Get the dog in a muzzle and hire a behaviorist and see what they think, but be aware that this isn’t likely to get substantially better and is something you’ll need to protect yourself and others from the dog’s entire life, and make sure that’s something you’re prepared to do. It’s a little sad to me that you won’t even be able to consider having kids and you’re sacrificing that possibility for this dog, but if you are so in love and attached to the dog, I get it. I just get upset that rescues are willing to place unpredictable biters in homes. That’s something they should be identifying and weeding out of the adoption pool and you should never have been put in this position to begin with.

 

[psalms119]

@scottwilson While it is common for people to stick their hands out in greeting, this can be uncomfortable for dogs because it looks like someone reaching straight for their face. It's much better to avoid head pats and hand sniffs with fearful dogs and instead let the dog approach first, feed treats, or pet under the chin so the dog doesn't feel threatened.

It's also common for some rescue dogs to come from traumatic backgrounds and be fearful of men. It sounds like this may be the case with this dog. It may ultimately be better for this dog to go to a home without as many visitors and surely less strange men coming over. Better for you and better for the dog, who wouldn't have to keep getting accustomed to new introductions. Of course, it's difficult to manage, because a rescue with a bite history is very hard to rehome so I understand your concerns.

I would recommend getting a behaviorist who can help train this dog. And also muzzle train. When guests come over, have the dog wear a muzzle. It's safest for everyone this way. It would also be good for your dog to have a safe "place" where it can retreat to if it feels overwhelmed. A quiet room with his bed or a kennel would be ideal. And when he goes there, just leave him alone.

 

[scottwilson]

@psalms119 agreed, everyone present had been told NO HANDS and I'm really pissed that apparently they forgot this, because it should have been prevented. The dog can't handle hands coming towards his face at all, even under the chin scratches until he warms up to people.

We have a pretty quiet life, so we're actually not a terrible home for managing a dog like this but I'm really worried about the fact this behavior seems to be escalating and the potential liability.

The dog is actually an livestock guardian (shepherd) cross, not a pitbull.

I don't think this dog would retreat first when he is overwhelmed. When he is overwhelmed he usually would lunge and snap before retreating. This time he escalated to biting before retreating.

Definitely going to muzzle train asap and find a behaviorist.

 

[flameinthesnow]

@scottwilson The scariest dog I ever knew was a Pyrenees type livestock guarding dog mix. Sounds a lot like what you’re experiencing. This one was named “Winston” raised by a Russian orphan with FAS //violent tendencies in a pen enforced by her abusive adoptive dad. Dog was nuts. Many maulings. Many under the same umbrella of trigger dynamic. Stepped over // stepped past, hands under or over, contact of any kind, resources neared. Very scary dog. Sent my best friend to the hospital. I wish you luck. I left that violent girl alone to deal with her vicious dog (albeit leaving basic dog handling advice I’m certain was not taken)

 

[gdssldier]

@flameinthesnow Please note that we ask people who want to mention being a professional in their comments undergo verification before doing so. Otherwise we ask phrases like that to be omitted.

 

[flameinthesnow]

@gdssldier Ah, sorry. I’m an animal professional, however, I’m NOT a certified dog trainer, so as per the rules I’ll modify my terminology!! Thanks for the heads up.

 

[christian45]

@scottwilson If he was on the porch and they were below it, was the door closed, and was there space for him to get away without first having to get closer to them? If not, is it possible he might have felt trapped? If they ignored your instruction not to stick out their hand, might they also have been displaying other behaviours that were unintentionally threatening to the dog?

Of course it could well be rooted in previous experience, paired with genetic predispositions. However, I really hope that it was not completely without warning, as this is extremely rare and usually indicative of a medical problem. I hope that working with a behaviourist helps identify those triggers, signs, and alternative actions you and your partner can take to manage the situation.
It does also sound like he has previously given warning with past incidents, but your visitor chose to try it again anyway and push it without first letting your dog become comfortable with them.

However, it is of course vital to recognize the severity of the current risk if not managed. Muzzle training and keeping distance from and avoiding interaction with other people and animals is for the best, at least until you have consulted with a suitable, qualified behaviourist. A vet check up (muzzled) can help identify physical problems which might be contributing.

I really wish you the best of luck.

He would have little chance in the shelter, unless they are dishonest. If it comes down to it, euthanasia may be kinder than returning him to an extremely stressful environment he is unlikely to be adopted into a suitable home from. However, I really hope that it does not come down to that - this may be tough and exhausting to manage, but it does not sound impossible.

 

[scottwilson]

@christian45 I'm sure there was likely a component of him feeling trapped. "B" was on the porch on the other side grilling burgers and then D was near the stairs. I think he also likely gave very subtle body language cues but these folks are not super animal savvy so they wouldn't have picked up on any of that. But I think what surprised me more was that he had met D previously and got along fine with no snapping or even being nervous around him. There absolutely was human error involved though, no doubt about that