@scottwilson Anxiety frequently has flares, where someone might seem mostly okay but then suddenly panics.
Like I said: go to the vet first. Make certain there’s no underlying medical cause for the behavior. Talk to them about your concerns regarding his unknown history and the possibility of an anxiety disorder or PTSD.
Medication can be a serious lifesaver, for dogs and humans. Ask around different subreddits for people struggling with anxiety and PTSD and depression and you’ll find plenty of stories of people having great success on medication, especially those who didn’t even realize how much pressure and pain they were under all the time.
It’s ultimately your decision, but at the very least, I wouldn’t give up on this dog without a very thorough veterinarian examination first.
@scottwilson Just want to add my 2c that medication has been helpful for my two anxious reactive rescues. To be honest they’re still a bit stressful to deal with at times, and lately I’ve been thinking we might just never be able to have people over again. They’re mostly fine but on two occasions they’ve given a guest a tiny nip on the ankle and I worry things will get worse. So I have also been working with a behaviourist and part of the plan is just to lower their anxiety generally, which is where medication was helpful.
Also I wonder if you might be right that the dog doesn’t give any warnings, of course there are many subtle signs that can be missed by inexperienced dog owners but I know that if dogs have been punished using forceful measures for growling etc then they’re more likely to go straight to a bite. Something for a behaviourist to evaluate with you. Best of luck and huge solidarity. I love my dogs a lot but sometimes I swear I’m never getting another rescue again. And the place I adopted one of them from is incredibly judgemental and aggressive about failed adoptions, which I think is so unhelpful.
@bigmike424 Do you have any scientific studies to back up this claim? Bipolar dogs?
I have never in my life with dogs heard anyone say that a dog is bipolar?
Dogs and hunans are wired differently, so I find this hard to belive. Also medication wont solve the main ptoblem why the dog is acting the way it does.
Medicating dogs is not that normal here in Norway.
Also, Im bipolar myself. Never met a dog in my life that I would even concider being bipolar.
@bigmike424 I never said that dogs or other animals dont suffer from mental problems, I just asked for studies on bipolar in dogs.
I live in Norway, mental problems in dogs is more often sorted by training, dont hear much about medicated dogs. Im sure some dogs get help from medication, but its not the norm at all.
I have asked vets about meds for mental issues, and they stated its not normal.
Also our laws regarding dogs who bite are very strict here, the victim of a bite can press charges and thats it for the dog, will be put down. You can take it to court, but good look winning.
@kabob Training is preferred here too, but there are times where you can’t even start training until you treat the underlying mental health issues first.
“My Cat From Hell” had a few episodes covering this. Animals are just as prone to chemical imbalances in their brains as people, and when every other cause of a behavior is already ruled out, it’s time to seriously consider the animal’s mental health.
Speaking from personal experience, training won’t cure PTSD or an anxiety disorder.
@kabob I don't think saying a dog is "bipolar" is entirely accurate (and, I am not a vet/neuroscientist/etc.), but I recently took a cool webinar by Sharon Carroll on behavioral health/mental health issues in dogs, and she had some neat material on how researchers are identifying a variety of 'comparable' mental health disorders in dogs as to humans. In some sense - dog 'versions' of certain disorders like PTSD, depression, generalized anxiety, OCD, etc. Again, it's not to say the diagnoses are identical, but researchers have found activity/inactivity in the same areas of the brain on CT scans between dogs and humans with analogous disorders, among other evidence. I thought it was cool/interesting!
@scottwilson Definitely seek professional help if you decide that this is something that you think you can take on. But from someone who has been in a similar situation before (with a much less intense bite) MUZZLE TRAIN, STAT! It can be very time consuming to get your dog appropriately conditioned to wearing a muzzle, especially if your dog is very nervous. I know in my case, I was not able to accomplish much with a trainer or behaviorist until my dog was able to wear a muzzle as they were not keen to be in close proximity to a dog with a bite history and no muzzle.
@scottwilson OP, I must stress to you that regardless of if you get professional help or whatever the other comments are suggesting: It sounds like your dog is dangerous and you need to do your utmost to make sure that 5-6 stitches in an adult is the worst that comes out of it - because next time it could be someone's small dog, or heaven forbid someone's child that gets mauled, or murdered (90lb dogs with a lot of bite force are unfortunately very capable of this).
If you take on the responsibility of keeping this dog I would heavily consider keeping it muzzled at all times while in public, and when you have any company over. You seem to genuinely want to do what is best here so my recommendation if you keep it is to make sure nothing worse happens to someone else, next time could be a lot worse.
@giot thank you, I agree. It was only 5-6 stitches this time, but the dog went from snapping to now biting, and if our precautions fail and there's a next time, it will only be worse. I really tried to emphasize to the rescue that I wanted an easy going dog, not a reactive or aggressive dog but here we are...
This is unfortunately not all that surprising. Rescues are completely overwhelmed, and the no kill ones are forced to try and adopt out any dogs regardless of disposition. With the backyard breeding epidemic our country is dealing with its no surprise that we end up with shelters trying to push problem dogs out to anyone, which means being dishonest about them. I say this bearing no ill-will to the dogs in question, it really makes me sad if anything. But you shouldn't feel bad about how things ended up.
@giot yes, the rescue had made several indications that the dog maybe had some issues, but they were definitely down played. We were told he could be slow to warm up to people and might bark at them or he had growled at a vet tech and I actually was going to back out but I was pressured into it by the rescue and my partner. When we went to pick the dog up, he snapped at my partner (which he has not done since) and the guy from the rescue was like, "oh yeah, don't worry about that, he did that with me too." Which we had never been told about...hind sight is 20:20 but at that point the dog had been shipped half way across the country and I didn't want to put him through a return trip.
@scottwilson I think you mentioned he was a livestock guardian dog in one of your comments- he may really just not be a people person” kind of dog. In his genetics and whatever trauma he endured. Is he able to have a flock of something to watch over? This may not be the right course of action as you couldn’t completely isolate any chance of him interacting with people (I’m not sure your property situation) but if you look at what this dog was bred to do, it may add some insight to his behavior.
Are you in the US? Were there any fireworks occurring too? Lots of things can add up, “trigger stacking” and cause bites to be more likely to occur.
I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. You’re on the right track with a behaviorist and muzzle training, many are online nowadays. I would be hesitant to say immediately go for behavioral euthanasia, just because often times people will say a dog bites out of the blue when there were a thousand warning signs building up to it, we humans are just not generally the best at reading dog behavior, but it is a possibility. I wish you luck.
@gawain20 He is definitely not a people person dog and we knew that and were okay with it, but this is something beyond my comfort zone. We have livestock (steers, horses) and he kind of hangs out with them a little bit but he seems to lack the usual focus and drive that other LGDs have in terms of monitoring their flock. He's goofy and he likes to play, not so much on the working. Honestly he loves the lawnmower more than he does the livestock.
There were no fireworks happening. But obviously he was past his threshold. I'm sure there were subtle warning signs that got missed unfortunately.
@scottwilson Sounds like a mix… tbh I’d think carefully if you really want to keep this dog around. Even if he’s good with you he will never be that pet.
Think hard about it cause in the end are you ok with just 1 dog that you might never be able to socialise with or bring to anywhere else
@scottwilson I adopted a dog last year, we were told how easy going he was and then he went on to attack me (and when I say attack I mean literally chase me to bite me) and my partner. He tried to attack strangers on the streets and anyone who moved the wrong way. The shelter was incredibly irresponsible as it was clear they had a hard time rehoming. He also ended up with serious SA so couldn't go anywhere, and even though he was apparently muzzle trained he would escape out of all of them and then proceed to resource guard the muzzle. Needless to say, we sent him packing. I am sure people reading this will think I am heartless using that phrase, but I simply could not love a dog who always wanted to hurt me or my family, so I now lack the empathy, and that upsets me that I have such a dislike for him now in contrast to how much I thought I loved him when he was first adopted.
What I will say is this: don't be me, and end it on a good note with this one while this bite is your only incident. You get a dog to fit around your life, and not the other way around. The opposite end is for people who work with dogs as their career. You would be totally forgiven for swallowing your heart here and returning the dog. If that dog continues to seriously injure people or worse, you are liable. Even with a behaviourist, this will be a long (and expensive) uphill battle. Do you really have the time and energy to deal with it? Most normal people with jobs won't.
Fully prepared to take downvotes for this, but that is the reality. Love does not cure aggressive/fearful dogs.
@scottwilson Lunged and bit with no warning. 90 pounds. Hospital, stitches, record of having bitten a person. I'm less worried about the trauma the dog may suffer going forward, because a dog we have as a pet has to have a HUGE threshold to reach before he bites someone. So the dog is having trauma NOW, with no provocation, and he bit a person he knows, even though he was safe with you and your partner around, food cooking, and treats. You think you are at fault for failing to manage the introduction. ONE more failure like that, and you may be sued, and/or responsible for a very serious injury. Hand injuries are very serious. I agree with you. Only a professional can handle a dog like this. Maybe there is a slim change that a behavioral quirk can be fixed with insightful training, but I think the risk is too great. He bit with no provocation. He feels there is serious threat around him. My opinion is return him to the rescue. Be completely honest about the bite and snapping history. Good luck, be safe.
