*trigger warning* considering BE

[gilcimarlp]

Hi all, apologies I know there’s been some discussion surrounding too many BE posts. This is a throw away account but I’ve found a lot of peace and solidarity in this sub and I wanted to vent.

I have a 4 year old mutt (shep, lab, mastiff, boxer etc etc) who developed pretty bad resource guarding around 2 years old. He also became dog aggressive. It got really scary and at 3 years old and after zero luck with R+ trainers, we mistakingly sought out help from trainers that use e-collars spring/summer 2022. As you can expect, he seemed to make huge improvements but because he was getting corrected for his growls - he no longer had a warning. I now know how bad this is and if you can spare me any lengthy lectures it would be appreciated but I understand this might upset some folks.

1st: Scary instance besides snapping, I once reached down to pet him before bed and he got up and bit the front of my t shirt and pulled back, it was terrifying and he wouldn’t let go. Summer 2022

2nd: He seemed to be doing good and then he bit my husband in the car one day on a road trip, level 4 bite. I know there’s lots of factors here, the e collar, a weekend away, waiting in a car lineup on a road trip. September 2022

3rd: He bit me after a walk (still using e collar) at this point) level 4 and I thought I would have ligament damage/some sort of break and got an x ray. This was December 2022.

4th: that same week he bit my husband, level 4, trip to hospital. They don’t typically stitch dog bites but he did get a single stitch. We attributed this to his cortisol still running high after the 3rd bite.

After this I said fuck the e-collar (total 6 months or less) and these trainers, he had only become more aggressive to us, his handlers, and damaged our relationship. He had never shown any aggression to anyone in my family or friend group at any time, parents often looked after him without an inkling of an issue.

We moved out of our apartment (very noisy building with a lot of reactive dogs) and into a house with a fenced yard, ditched the collar, and went back to R+ in an effort to improve his environment and he made a 180 change. We were so thrilled.

Recently I was trying to clean his eye and he lunged and bit my stomach (level 2) it had been 6 months since any incident and I knew I had pushed a boundary. He stopped when I grabbed him and I was pleased with his reaction. May 2023

Fast forward a couple months and my husband makes the mistake of throwing him some cheese and then going downstairs to “help him find it”, gets bit twice on the leg and on the hand. One puncture wound on thigh. August 2023

We understand we have put him in situations where he can fail and have fucked up in the past. Right now, we don’t take him hiking or expose him to off leash dogs, can’t in good conscience have him around family/kids in case something were to go wrong, and now with this most recent bite I will not leave him with my parents despite them “never seeing an issue”.

My life has become more and more secluded and it feels like I’m just waiting for the next disaster to happen. 90% of the time he is a sweet dog, athletic, happy, affectionate even. If you weee to meet him you’d be shocked to hear these things. I’m calling the vet today to discuss options, medication/behaviourist and/or BE… I’m hoping he can be helped but also dreading the anticipation of another bite.

I guess I just needed to vent. If anyone has gone through this and can share their stories it would be helpful.

 

[milz777]

@gilcimarlp The problem isn't so much that the dog bites in certain circumstances, it's that he delivers level 4 bites. Multiple times. As Dr Dunbar explains in his dog bite chart, a dog that delivers level 4 bites lacks bite inhibition and will bite again, and there is a very real risk that in the future it might even escalate to level 5, or god forbid level 6.

I'm on dogs number 6 and 7. Over the years I've been bitten by three of my dogs, all single event bites for good reasons and all level 2 bites. So these were all dogs with good bite inhibition.

One of my dogs has delivered a level 5 bite to one of my other dogs, resulting in many puncture wounds and a fractured leg. I had him put down the next day because I do not take risks with that level of unpredictable aggression.

So, those are the facts that apply to your situation. You have a dog without bite inhibition and with a multiple level 4 bite history. No amount of training or medication is going to stop your dog from biting in the future. It's unfair and heartbreaking, but it's true.

You know what to do. I'm sorry.

 

[gilcimarlp]

@milz777 This was a really helpful, thoughtful response. Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

[kurat]

@gilcimarlp A large powerful dog delivering serious bites… you’re not wrong for BE. This is dangerous for you and your husband and the dog sounds unstable. If the bites weren’t so serious, or he was a much smaller dog you might have a little wiggle room to continue working with him. But these circumstances, BE sounds like the safest way forward.

 

[bragar]

@gilcimarlp I am absolutely shocked that you have tolerated so many level 4 bites and continue to live with this dog. The best time for BE is before the life changing bite. You or your husband are likely to be the target of that bite. If you care about each other, you will give this dog a peaceful end before it happens.

 

[davecb]

@gilcimarlp You can try meds but a different trainer or a behaviorist isn't going to produce better results.

Medication probably won't either. You guys are going to get bitten again.

Dr. Dunbar who is the go-to on dog bite evaluations says this about Level 4 bites:

The dog has insufficient bite inhibition and is very dangerous. Prognosis is poor because of the difficulty and danger of trying to teach bite inhibition to an adult hard-biting dog and because absolute owner-compliance is rare.

You can read the entire thing here.

Just as with humans, some dogs are wired wrong. I would keep BE on the table for this dog.

A large, adult dog who has already done Level 4 bites is indeed a dangerous dog.

I'm sorry you're going thru this.

 

[ccampbell]

@davecb I recall a podcast with Ian Dunbar saying (paraphrasing as I can’t recall his exact words) that he would no longer work with dogs with a level 4 bite.

 

[davecb]

@ccampbell

I recall a podcast with Ian Dunbar saying (paraphrasing as I can’t recall his exact words) that he would no longer work with dogs with a level 4 bite.

There's not much to be gained from it to be honest, other than giving false hope to a family.

A dog who has done multiple level 4 bites in a pet home, with very inexperienced owners is just a ticking time bomb.

People think that a trainer will be some wonderful panacea in a case like that, but it won't happen. Even with good timing, and a great understanding of dog behavior (which means NOT a pet home), something will go wrong.

 

[milz777]

@davecb The thing is that most dog trainers know enough about dog behaviour to not tolerate a dog in their home that delivers level 4 bites. I'm a (retired) dog trainer and I would very strongly consider BE even the first time one of my dogs gives me a level 4 bite.

In order for dogs to peacefully and safely exist in our families and society, they need bite inhibition. A dog that delivers level 4 bites has none, and no amount of training or medication can fix that.

 

[davecb]

@milz777

The thing is that most dog trainers know enough about dog behaviour to not tolerate a dog in their home that delivers level 4 bites. I'm a (retired) dog trainer and I would very strongly consider BE even the first time one of my dogs gives me a level 4 bite.

Yup. Especially if it's a big dog, and especially when you deconstruct what led up to it, and it's something that should have at most resulted in a growl or an air snap.

We know dogs are really good at pulling punches. I can watch my dogs playing, and there are teeth flashing, and snarls going on, and teeth snapping in the air...but it's 100% ritualized playing. There's no intent, and no teeth actually make contact.

When a dog bites and it's a level 4, there was genuine thought and malice about hurting someone. And anyone who thinks that they're going to fix that, especially in a pet home, doesn't understand that the bite scale goes up from 4.

In order for dogs to peacefully and safely exist in our families and society, they need bite inhibition. A dog that delivers level 4 bites has none, and no amount of training or medication can fix that.

When I taught puppy and young dog classes I'd have quite a few of the young dogs who had bite records. They were often fixable with a lot of work from the owners, and understanding that the dog was never going to be an easy dog.

But when I had the occasional young dog who was escalating, and was going in the direction of worse and worse and more frequent bites to humans, I'd send them to a behaviorist. And I was blunt with the owners: they had to understand that just paying a behaviorist was no promise of seeing any improvement in the dog or making the dog safe to own. If they already had a very serious bite on a human, I'd tell them that while they could try a behaviorist, and drugs, they should keep BE on the table.

BE is better than having a dead child or any person with their face ripped off.

 

[gilcimarlp]

@davecb Appreciate all the context you shared here

 

[gilcimarlp]

@davecb Thank you for the information and your sentiment. I agree and will read the links you provided. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

 

[ninimu]

@gilcimarlp I don't have any sage advice or resources, but just wanted to let you know I am going through the same thing right now. Four bites, all level 4. Last one was on Friday and I am dealing with 3 stitches in my hand. He's still my best friend and I love him so much. But seriously considering BE. The vets are on board because we have tried all the things. This really really really really sucks.

 

[gilcimarlp]

@ninimu I really feel for you, our most recent bite was this weekend. I hope you are healing up okay, my bite in December was terrifying. We love him so so much and it’s heartbreaking to think of not having him around. We have a consult with our vet tomorrow afternoon.

 

[ninimu]

@gilcimarlp I don't know if you're still following this, but we made the decision to go through with BE tomorrow. I have been revisiting this post over the last few days to make me confident I am making the right choice. It is heartwrenching. Thank you for making the post.

 

[gilcimarlp]

@ninimu I’m still following. Thinking of you

You have tried everything and been earnest in your efforts to help your dog. I hope your hand is healing up okay. We can do hard things the limbo in between the appts and grief is so intense.

We did go to the vet today and they suggested drugs (trazadone) as we haven’t tried that yet, I’m a bit skeptical but it is required and it’s important to feel like we did try all things.

 

[christianityfacts]

@davecb I appreciate you sharing the links because it's interesting the way bites are classified into levels. I also realized that according to the classifications, my parents have one or 2 dogs in their home who had a level 4 bite on my mom. However, the situation that led to this, especially since my parents had one of my aunts and her 3 dogs move in after a house fire, was my aunt's dog, Willow, who started the house fire trying to steal snacks off of the stove while home alone, started a dog fight with my parents dog, Polly, as a result of Willow waking up having an episode from her PTSD. My mom was home alone and had to basically lay on willow and hold Polly back while pinning willow until she calmed down enough for my mom to put the dogs into different rooms. I live an hour away from her and am a non driver but I got the call for help to get ahold of my aunt so I told her to focus on getting her medical care and I'd get ahold of everyone who needed to be informed of the incident as well as have them update me and I'd update everyone else so they could focus on communicating with my aunt and insuring everyone got the medical care they needed. Polly has developed fear of dogs her size and they have to keep the 3 medium sized dogs separate for safety and the Chihuahua is only kept away from willow.

My dog(100lb mastiff mix) however has never had anything worse than a level 2 bite(just by the literal definition in the link) and the vast majority of his bites were in the process of me teaching him bite inhibition as a puppy during playtime or as an additional part of communication because he just very gently grabs me and will basically mouth me as a "I don't like this mom" and then doesn't escalate past that even if I continue to do something he doesn't like and is protesting. I encourage him to do that if he thinks I'm not catching he's not happy about something so he knows he can make me aware of his dislike and that if I am aware he's unhappy but still insisting on it, it's for his own good because he hates baths but if he needs one, he's getting one regardless of his opinion. That and I'm functionally legally blind so I'm going to miss certain cues in his body language so I want him to know that he can use touch to communicate with me and acceptable ways to do so, like if he's done being petted and I miss the cues in his body language, either put the body part he wants petted under my hand/foot or just move away from me or if he needs me to know, he's not thrilled about something and he doesn't feel like vocalizing it for everyone to know, he can very gently mouth me(and only me) as long as he doesn't break skin, it isn't his first resort to communicate, and he respects the fact that I'm not always going to let him get out of something he doesn't like as I would rather an angry but safe/healthy dog than a dog whos happy but is either unhealthy or unsafe. He's not felt the need to mouth me, except maybe moving my arms while I'm sound asleep and wouldn't know, in years despite his extremely rough first month or 2 before my mother-in-law rescued him just months before my fiance and I met(we became a trio when my dog was 6 months old) and he's only 6 or 7 years old now

 

[nathan2018]

@gilcimarlp I did a BE seven weeks ago. I loved my dog very much, and I miss him every single minute of the day. We should not live being afraid of our pets. You can not go the rest of his life worried that he's going to disfigure someone or seriously hurt you. Sometimes, their brains are just not wired right.

 

[goingon4him]

@gilcimarlp This is a tough situation but I wouldn't hesitate to euthanize this dog. If you choose to do so be at peace, he's not well.

 

[skycentrism]

@gilcimarlp It's totally up to you, but what training have you done on the resource guarding? Just trusting the new environment? Because the latest bites do sound like another instance of him being set up to fail, given a treat and then forcing him to see that treat threatened. Or is what your husband did really something he's done a lot before? With good happy body language from your dog?

How much do you study dog body language, and how well would you say you can read your dog? Can you tell the difference between him being alert and him being a lil anxious? Excited panting versus stress panting?