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Spoke to a behaviourist, now I’m scared.
- Thread starter mahhko
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- reactive dogs support
cindi4work
New member
@deerocks Right??
I had one that bit my neighbor several times, and the trainer didn't think he was a loss. To be fair, said neighbor kept coming into my yard and loudly threatening me, so my dog would attack him. But I wanted the dog to learn to listen to me and get to safety. Also, it made my dog reactive to men who yelled, at all, anywhere, even if it was just calling their kids to leave a park or something like that. It didn't have to be angry. He wouldn't try to run off and attack (he was on leash, anyway), but he'd bark and growl and scare people.
The trainer said his breed mix, boxer-pit-heeler, meant he was likely to always be vocal when he thought someone was threatening me. If he wasn't trying to move toward them, especially off leash, I needed to understand that was actually really good training. He said he wasn't at all surprised my neighbor got attacked multiple times. He was surprised after the first time, my dog waited until the neighbor yelled, and that I was able to call my dog off every time after the first bite. The neighbor kept calling the cops and animal control over it, but they just told him to stay the hell of my property if he didn't want it to happen. They even came out a few times, because he called, and arrested him for trespassing. Why yes, there was a lot of alcohol involved in that man's decisions.
Animal control and the cops, btw, all tried calling my dog to come off my property because the neighbor claimed I let him run the neighborhood. He would walk up to the line and stop. Even when they offered treats. The only way he left the yard was if I said he could. Even on leash, he'd stop at the edge of the yard and refuse to move if I forgot to verbally give him permission. We had a fenced area, as well, mostly to keep the neighborhood kids from playing with him when I wasn't right there, but if I was in the yard, he was with me. I found out one day he could absolutely make it over that 6' fence to get into the front yard to go after the neighbor, though. He legit climbed the chain link and launched himself off the top. I installed coyote rollers.
We moved away, and it took about a year, but the dog learned to listen to me and not growl and bark at every man who yelled at anyone in any way. Unless they were nearby and directly threatening me. He'd stay at heel on his leash, but he sounded evil. I decided not to train that out of him, because it worked. The men went away. It was hilarious that my dog also thought cat calling was threatening. I'm guessing he felt my annoyance.
That's not a breed mix I'd have chosen, btw. I adopted him as a small puppy and was told he was a a totally different mix. I'm not a huge fan of protective breeds because I hike and camp a lot. I've got huskies now, and people friendly dogs who don't often bark work much better for my lifestyle. I did have to work with one a lot to get him over his anxiety of strangers, but he was never aggressive. He just hid behind me. He spent the first almost 8 years of his life with very little socialization. It was just his elderly owners and sometimes their kids and grandkids. They lived somewhere remote, too, so he'd never walked on a leash, never met new people except a vet twice in his life, never got any experience. He's still tentative about new people on leash most of the time, but he'll greet them if I give him permission, and if they rub his face, he absolutely melts.
Most of his anxiety is gone after 3 years, though he's having a meltdown right now because there's a porcupine in the yard, and I won't let him out to run it off. He won't touch it, thankfully, but I don't need him barking at 2am and bothering the neighbors, so he's pacing the floor and crying. For the last hour. Every time I try to go to bed, he starts howling. The other dog has gotten up and smacked him a few times, as if that's helping matters. I sent him back to bed and told him to stay there. He grumbled the whole way but did it. Welcome to owning toddlers with ADHD in fluffy form.
I had one that bit my neighbor several times, and the trainer didn't think he was a loss. To be fair, said neighbor kept coming into my yard and loudly threatening me, so my dog would attack him. But I wanted the dog to learn to listen to me and get to safety. Also, it made my dog reactive to men who yelled, at all, anywhere, even if it was just calling their kids to leave a park or something like that. It didn't have to be angry. He wouldn't try to run off and attack (he was on leash, anyway), but he'd bark and growl and scare people.
The trainer said his breed mix, boxer-pit-heeler, meant he was likely to always be vocal when he thought someone was threatening me. If he wasn't trying to move toward them, especially off leash, I needed to understand that was actually really good training. He said he wasn't at all surprised my neighbor got attacked multiple times. He was surprised after the first time, my dog waited until the neighbor yelled, and that I was able to call my dog off every time after the first bite. The neighbor kept calling the cops and animal control over it, but they just told him to stay the hell of my property if he didn't want it to happen. They even came out a few times, because he called, and arrested him for trespassing. Why yes, there was a lot of alcohol involved in that man's decisions.
Animal control and the cops, btw, all tried calling my dog to come off my property because the neighbor claimed I let him run the neighborhood. He would walk up to the line and stop. Even when they offered treats. The only way he left the yard was if I said he could. Even on leash, he'd stop at the edge of the yard and refuse to move if I forgot to verbally give him permission. We had a fenced area, as well, mostly to keep the neighborhood kids from playing with him when I wasn't right there, but if I was in the yard, he was with me. I found out one day he could absolutely make it over that 6' fence to get into the front yard to go after the neighbor, though. He legit climbed the chain link and launched himself off the top. I installed coyote rollers.
We moved away, and it took about a year, but the dog learned to listen to me and not growl and bark at every man who yelled at anyone in any way. Unless they were nearby and directly threatening me. He'd stay at heel on his leash, but he sounded evil. I decided not to train that out of him, because it worked. The men went away. It was hilarious that my dog also thought cat calling was threatening. I'm guessing he felt my annoyance.
That's not a breed mix I'd have chosen, btw. I adopted him as a small puppy and was told he was a a totally different mix. I'm not a huge fan of protective breeds because I hike and camp a lot. I've got huskies now, and people friendly dogs who don't often bark work much better for my lifestyle. I did have to work with one a lot to get him over his anxiety of strangers, but he was never aggressive. He just hid behind me. He spent the first almost 8 years of his life with very little socialization. It was just his elderly owners and sometimes their kids and grandkids. They lived somewhere remote, too, so he'd never walked on a leash, never met new people except a vet twice in his life, never got any experience. He's still tentative about new people on leash most of the time, but he'll greet them if I give him permission, and if they rub his face, he absolutely melts.
Most of his anxiety is gone after 3 years, though he's having a meltdown right now because there's a porcupine in the yard, and I won't let him out to run it off. He won't touch it, thankfully, but I don't need him barking at 2am and bothering the neighbors, so he's pacing the floor and crying. For the last hour. Every time I try to go to bed, he starts howling. The other dog has gotten up and smacked him a few times, as if that's helping matters. I sent him back to bed and told him to stay there. He grumbled the whole way but did it. Welcome to owning toddlers with ADHD in fluffy form.
@mahhko What credentials did that behaviorist have? That title is completely unregulated here in the States so there is often confusion between them and Veterinary Behaviorists who go through board certification. You might be in for a long journey but nothing you've said makes this case sound hopeless at all.
@mahhko So I have a sweet girl who I also got at 8 weeks (mini American shepherd) who is turning 4 years old in June. Also anxious, reactive, and just enjoys barking.
Once when she was young, she resource guarded a chew and bit my partner when he tried to take the chew. She has not bitten since (we don’t give her those chews anymore and do things to manage resource guarding; also put a muzzle on her when she goes to the vet) and have never once thought she’d need BE.
Your girl sounds like mine where she’s reactive because she’s scared/weary of strangers. I put a muzzle on mine when she goes to the vet, and after the visit the techs are carrying her like a baby without a muzzle. Also, once she had a multi-overnight stay at a pet hospital due to a surgery. She started with a muzzle and within days the techs were holding her like a baby without a muzzle.
Disregard what the behaviorist says regarding needing to do BE. That’s crazy, especially if your girl has never bitten anyone or proven to be dangerous to others. Unless the dog is truly aggressive, unpredictable, and has done multiple bites/can’t be trusted around anyone (including the owner), I do not see how BE in any shape or form could be a reasonable option.
Once when she was young, she resource guarded a chew and bit my partner when he tried to take the chew. She has not bitten since (we don’t give her those chews anymore and do things to manage resource guarding; also put a muzzle on her when she goes to the vet) and have never once thought she’d need BE.
Your girl sounds like mine where she’s reactive because she’s scared/weary of strangers. I put a muzzle on mine when she goes to the vet, and after the visit the techs are carrying her like a baby without a muzzle. Also, once she had a multi-overnight stay at a pet hospital due to a surgery. She started with a muzzle and within days the techs were holding her like a baby without a muzzle.
Disregard what the behaviorist says regarding needing to do BE. That’s crazy, especially if your girl has never bitten anyone or proven to be dangerous to others. Unless the dog is truly aggressive, unpredictable, and has done multiple bites/can’t be trusted around anyone (including the owner), I do not see how BE in any shape or form could be a reasonable option.
@mahhko You’re welcome! I know it’s tough raising a reactive pup when you had her since she was a baby — maybe even feeling like you made her reactive. But often times this is based on genetics, personality, and other circumstances due to no fault of our own.
For example, we have another dog (same breed) who we also raised at 8 weeks. She’s not reactive, anxious, or barky at all and we more or less trained her the same lol
For example, we have another dog (same breed) who we also raised at 8 weeks. She’s not reactive, anxious, or barky at all and we more or less trained her the same lol
cindi4work
New member
@mecob3 One of mine got muzzled at the vet during preop for a surgery on his ear because as the sedation started to kick in, he was howling and trying to bite everyone. He's never tried to bite, and he's been there a lot. They were surprised. As soon as he came to afterwards, he was back to his sweet self, albeit clearly not enjoying life. When I went to pick him up, he was sleeping next to the receptionist on her coat. "He just seemed so sad and lonely in the kennel." They spoil him rotten.
We also used to have to muzzle him for grooming. He's got some pretty bad trauma in the past about that from before we adopted him. He was so bad, professional groomers were recommending BE. So, he didn't go to them for over a year. We got a high velocity dryer and did it ourselves, sometimes 5 minutes at a time. He got lots of cheese, lots of praise, the ability to decide when it was over for now, and me singing to him, because he loves it. In March, he got a full professional grooming with no muzzle and was a perfect gentleman the entire time. He does have to be groomed by women only, except one specific guy who jokes it's because he's gay (the groomer, not my dog), but otherwise, the most he does is give them really sad looks. He excels at those looks, btw.
He used to be scared of strangers when on a leash outside. Now, he will greet them if I give him permission and get pets with his tail wagging. That took a ton of work, but he got there.
Somehow, he's not even anxious about storms or fireworks anymore as long as he's in our house. Anywhere else, they're a problem, but that's pretty normal for a dog. He's happy enough as long as I let him hide under something or get in my lap. He's a 55lb husky. I usually choose under something.
Anti anxiety meds did not work, btw. They made him worse. All he would do on them is hide under the dining table, even sometimes when he really needed to relieve himself, and then he'd cry about the mess he made, no matter how I tried to soothe him. The vet chose not to try another med. Pig skin chews turned out to be the best thing for high stress situations. He chews on them and calms right down. He's a pretty gentle chewer, so they last a long time.
Those chews are what got him accustomed to grooming, and now he tolerates bathing and drying, but loves being brushed. They are also what worked for storms and fireworks. He doesn't need them in the house anymore, but I still give him one on independence day and during bad storms. I want him to keep associating those events with something good, and he really loves those chews. He will, however, bring one to me and give it or let me walk up and take it. He sighs heavily and gives me sad looks, but he does it. We have two huskies, so I've been careful to get rid of even the smallest resource guarding, so it didn't turn into something big.
We're still working on his leash manners around reactive dogs, because he turns into one of them. Slow progress is being made. Sloooowww, but if I look back at where he was when we got him almost 3 years ago, he's come a long way. We can pass at about 20' with only soft whining now. It used to be lunging and barking at 100. At 15? Nah, he's still going to lunge and bark. I'm often envious of those whose dogs just walk calmly by other dogs freaking out, but then I remember my other dog does that just fine, too. He so pointedly "ignores" them, it's hilarious. His calm has helped a lot in training the other dog. I am calm. He is calm. There's no reason to freak out, right? It's just so hard for me to keep that calm, which isn't helping him at all. He will catch even the slightest bit of tension from me, and then he loses it if he hasn't already.
We also used to have to muzzle him for grooming. He's got some pretty bad trauma in the past about that from before we adopted him. He was so bad, professional groomers were recommending BE. So, he didn't go to them for over a year. We got a high velocity dryer and did it ourselves, sometimes 5 minutes at a time. He got lots of cheese, lots of praise, the ability to decide when it was over for now, and me singing to him, because he loves it. In March, he got a full professional grooming with no muzzle and was a perfect gentleman the entire time. He does have to be groomed by women only, except one specific guy who jokes it's because he's gay (the groomer, not my dog), but otherwise, the most he does is give them really sad looks. He excels at those looks, btw.
He used to be scared of strangers when on a leash outside. Now, he will greet them if I give him permission and get pets with his tail wagging. That took a ton of work, but he got there.
Somehow, he's not even anxious about storms or fireworks anymore as long as he's in our house. Anywhere else, they're a problem, but that's pretty normal for a dog. He's happy enough as long as I let him hide under something or get in my lap. He's a 55lb husky. I usually choose under something.
Anti anxiety meds did not work, btw. They made him worse. All he would do on them is hide under the dining table, even sometimes when he really needed to relieve himself, and then he'd cry about the mess he made, no matter how I tried to soothe him. The vet chose not to try another med. Pig skin chews turned out to be the best thing for high stress situations. He chews on them and calms right down. He's a pretty gentle chewer, so they last a long time.
Those chews are what got him accustomed to grooming, and now he tolerates bathing and drying, but loves being brushed. They are also what worked for storms and fireworks. He doesn't need them in the house anymore, but I still give him one on independence day and during bad storms. I want him to keep associating those events with something good, and he really loves those chews. He will, however, bring one to me and give it or let me walk up and take it. He sighs heavily and gives me sad looks, but he does it. We have two huskies, so I've been careful to get rid of even the smallest resource guarding, so it didn't turn into something big.
We're still working on his leash manners around reactive dogs, because he turns into one of them. Slow progress is being made. Sloooowww, but if I look back at where he was when we got him almost 3 years ago, he's come a long way. We can pass at about 20' with only soft whining now. It used to be lunging and barking at 100. At 15? Nah, he's still going to lunge and bark. I'm often envious of those whose dogs just walk calmly by other dogs freaking out, but then I remember my other dog does that just fine, too. He so pointedly "ignores" them, it's hilarious. His calm has helped a lot in training the other dog. I am calm. He is calm. There's no reason to freak out, right? It's just so hard for me to keep that calm, which isn't helping him at all. He will catch even the slightest bit of tension from me, and then he loses it if he hasn't already.
prophetesst
New member
@mahhko Muzzle training is a good idea for any dog. It's a life skill not a sign of failure. Make sure the muzzle is big enough. Muzzle Training and Tips on Facebook is a good resource.
I have a reactive pup. So I feel your pain. We muzzle all the time in public. People will say stupid things to you. Ignore them.
Your pup needs to learn that these situations that scare her aren't scary. She will see improvement but probably never "cure". This is not mostly a question of "training" but rather one of "counter conditioning." It's a lot of work and you will have good days and bad days. And always use a muzzle around kids.
If in the UK contact the Royal College and ask if they can refer you. If in the us most vet schools will have a real behaviorist.
I have a reactive pup. So I feel your pain. We muzzle all the time in public. People will say stupid things to you. Ignore them.
Your pup needs to learn that these situations that scare her aren't scary. She will see improvement but probably never "cure". This is not mostly a question of "training" but rather one of "counter conditioning." It's a lot of work and you will have good days and bad days. And always use a muzzle around kids.
If in the UK contact the Royal College and ask if they can refer you. If in the us most vet schools will have a real behaviorist.
cindi4work
New member
@prophetesst I've muzzle trained all my dogs, reactive or not, perfect dogs, too. There might always be a time it has to happen, and I'd rather not have that be the first time they wear one. I had a dog who never had any issues, but one rabies shot when he was 4 just didn't go well. The vet got a muzzle, and my dog stuffed his nose right in it. Once in it, he just let the shot happen, too, with no more growls or struggling.
My current dogs get muzzled for certain vet procedures, and they instantly calm down, too. I think all the positives I have associated with the muzzle kick in and it helps them regain calm. One used to be an absolute gentleman there, but after he had to have a growth removed from his ear canal, he is really reactive to vet ear exams. Once in the muzzle, he happily lets the vet do whatever he wants. The other has always been pretty hostile about getting his temperature taken, but in a muzzle, he just grumbles and side eyes but stays still.
They're huskies, so they can be incredibly vocal sometimes. Guess what also stops with a muzzle? And their muzzles are large enough they can open their mouths in almost a full yawn, so they definitely wouldn't impede a howl or their sass. I don't ever put them in their muzzles just for being loud. It's just a thing I noticed when I put them on at the vet.
My current dogs get muzzled for certain vet procedures, and they instantly calm down, too. I think all the positives I have associated with the muzzle kick in and it helps them regain calm. One used to be an absolute gentleman there, but after he had to have a growth removed from his ear canal, he is really reactive to vet ear exams. Once in the muzzle, he happily lets the vet do whatever he wants. The other has always been pretty hostile about getting his temperature taken, but in a muzzle, he just grumbles and side eyes but stays still.
They're huskies, so they can be incredibly vocal sometimes. Guess what also stops with a muzzle? And their muzzles are large enough they can open their mouths in almost a full yawn, so they definitely wouldn't impede a howl or their sass. I don't ever put them in their muzzles just for being loud. It's just a thing I noticed when I put them on at the vet.
@mahhko Ugh I'm so sorry about what that behaviorist said to you! I had a similar experience speaking with one when I was looking for advice on my girl's reactivity to dogs. She never even met her and recommended the same. Turns out she wasn't an actually vet! We are working with a real vet behaviorist now and our girl has gotten so much better. It's slow going and she's still a work in progress but I have so much hope now. Good luck and don't let that jerk get you down!
@mahhko Professional dog trainer here. That sounds like a pretty reckless behaviorist. You can’t make a diagnosis like that over the phone. Speak to your vet about switching to a different anti anxiety to see if that work better. There are other options besides fluoxetine. Like clomipramine and clonidine. Your vet can better tell you about different options but there are times when switching meds is a huge help. Muzzle training isn’t a bad idea just be sure to use a basket muzzle not a muzzle that forces their mouth closed as this can prevent them from being able to pant and cool down when necessary.
strivingfortruth
New member
@mahhko Jesus Christ, dog training is an absolute scam. That person sucks and the fact they can suggest that at this juncture is abhorrent.
Your dog is in bottom 1% of reactivity and aggression. Do not BE, do not even remotely
Listen to someone who suggests that over the phone. I promise there’s light at the end of the tunnel. This is coming from someone who has seen the worst of it, trust me that person should never be near a dog again
Your dog is in bottom 1% of reactivity and aggression. Do not BE, do not even remotely
Listen to someone who suggests that over the phone. I promise there’s light at the end of the tunnel. This is coming from someone who has seen the worst of it, trust me that person should never be near a dog again
@strivingfortruth Dog training is not a scam. Scammers who claim to be a dog trainer/behavioralist are a scam. Force free trainers can be amazing.
strivingfortruth
New member
@bonabeans This is what you got from my comment? Why did you feel the need to make this a force free/aversive debate? Clown show
@mahhko That’s truly insane. They never even met your dog?!
My dog is highly reactive. Like tries to kill the vet with a muzzle on reactive. But she’s the biggest baby ever to us and our cat and our friends.
Also loves other dogs and her people- and is accepting of people if they have dogs!
She is leash reactive but is not while off leash- actually extremely well trained and hikes busy trails with us off leash and stays focused on mountain bike rides and will never even notice people when biking.
She has never bitten anyone because we don’t give her the opportunity to. She can live a normal life. That is so sad the behaviorist recommended that.
My dog is highly reactive. Like tries to kill the vet with a muzzle on reactive. But she’s the biggest baby ever to us and our cat and our friends.
Also loves other dogs and her people- and is accepting of people if they have dogs!
She is leash reactive but is not while off leash- actually extremely well trained and hikes busy trails with us off leash and stays focused on mountain bike rides and will never even notice people when biking.
She has never bitten anyone because we don’t give her the opportunity to. She can live a normal life. That is so sad the behaviorist recommended that.
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