Proper use of a prong collar

[loading]

@noahsk Please look up the proper way to put it on. I didn't have it on just right the first time I put it on my big boy and was really discouraged because I thought it didn't work.

 

[noahsk]

@loading Thank you for the tip!

Starting my study now that you mentioned it and definitely not taught as much from the gentleman as I just learned in the past 5 minutes.

Will keep learning before putting it on doggo.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@noahsk This will be an unpopular opinion here because most people train wrong and harsh but use comforting words like "calm, obedient, communication etc" to make them feel like theyre not suppressing tf out of the dog

Teach it as an activator and motivator first before using to suppress or punish. Dont do what someone else said and start by saying no and popping the leash in the house, he'll hate the prong and all youll do is suppress him and make him supersitious to go ahead of you, he wont be walking next to you out of clarity, only out of confusion, that method will eventually desensitize the dog to the prong and cause reactivity when the dogs arousal trumps the suppression which it will in the case that your dogs reactive to squirrels etc

You need to use and teach the prong to activate a reward and engagement, when thats done and the dog is clear how to shut off the pressure, not by dull compliance, but by switching into a state of high engagement, then you give a few really harsh corrections, timed well to put him off the stuff you want him to stop, while also cueing the engagement, this will teach him that instead of suppressing but still fixating around triggers, to actually engage with you and ignore the trigger

People throw around words like "calm" when talking about prong collar, thats all bullshit, suppression isnt calm, or a healthy state of mind. Bring your dog UP before you bring him down. Ie once my dogs state of mind is switched from fixating on a thing to engagement on me, now i can tune down how intense i want that engagement to be and make a neutral dog with a healthy and actually calm state of mind

Also be aware context is really important, opposites give context to eachother. You want your dog to really understand "come" he must also understand to "go away" and so on. If you only use the prong to make the dog walk next to you, the dog is confused, "when can i go ahead? do i just walk slow? Which positions get me corrected? Wheres safe to walk?". Its important to build and proof behaviours based on true understanding, not just correcting the dog into position,

The dog should be able to be punished, petted and retreive with the same stick - bart bellon.

Starting with punishment will make it nigh impossible to condition positive associations to your tool and they become collarwise and hate it. Whereas if you make them love it, then show them in certain contexts you must do a,b & c or this thing they love has the potential to hurt them, they dont stop loving the thing, they just avoid the potential hurt.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

Look, your dog can not and will not be engaged with you 100% of the time. Another word for that is “being in a state of high expectation of reward” and it is an exhausting state of mind to the dog and absolutely not sustainable. For a husky mix, that is just not going to happen. You can teach a great “check-in”-cue, and give that cue at random intervals, but for OP’s dog the alternative to pulling is not realistically going to be “excitedly heeling, fully checked in”.

The dog needs to learn how not to pull when it’s distracted and checked tf out too, because that’s how most dogs spend most of their time outside.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

You have totally misunderstood everything ive said. Doesnt matter what the breed, introducing tools as aversion only when dealing with pulling and fixating on shit will just make the dog collarwise and hate the tool. Theres literally comments saying "say no and pop the dog in your living room". No ones saying ask for engagement 100% of the time, but its important the dog has context of whats expected from them and knows that a correction means to check in as you said, not just be careful how fast you walk or you might get a pop / shudder and suppress yourself at your conditioned punisher cue

Also you 110% can get sustained and decent enough drive to practice what ive said from any dog with the right work put in to it, and using aversion the right way will triple that drive. Breeds not an excuse to be lazy

The dog needs to learn how not to pull when it’s distracted and checked tf out too, because that’s how most dogs spend most of their time outside.

This should come last not first, otherwise youre just setting a singular tone for the tool and it wont last. I use the prong for both but activation always comes first 100% of the time. Dragging pet dogs around on prongs is bs training popularized by lazy people with mid drive dogs

Some people just want their dog to walk nicely and thats all. They dont deserve the privalege of this unless theyre also willing to put the other work in to fulfil the dogs mental needs which includes clarity and fair reinforcement, not just sticking a prong on the dog and popping it until the dog stops pulling

 

[noahsk]

@imagebeastmarkbeast He's very superstitious since day 1 so any way we don't make it worse is good in my book.

I think ima try rereading your post a few more times in the next few days. I got some of it but some went over my head

Like what is an activator. And how to teach it as a motivator. The biggest motivator for our pup is play time with our dogs. Second is people with dogs. Third is meat balls and hotdogs (which he sometimes ignores)

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@noahsk It basically means that instead of just teaching the dog to yield to pressure only, you teach them that the presence of thr pressure triggers a high value reward. And then you add instructions in between to increase the gap between pressure and reward. For example if you pop the collar and then feed 99 times, on the 100th time you pop the collar, no matter how hard the dog will be like "wheres my food, gimme my food" whereas if you dont do this, you pop the collar and the dogs like "wtf" and will suppress and behave for abit but its not out of training its from confusion, even if you reward the perceived "good behavioir" afterwards. Once this is really well drilled you can add different meaning to the pressure ie "sit, pop, feed". Once the association is strong, it means that taking the food with good intensity is almost a forced (but reinforcing) behaviour, the way to turn pressure off isnt to do with a completing a physical command at first but is by switching focus onto me. This way when you encounter things the dog fixates on and cannot focus around, when you correct, the correction triggers them to switch their focus altogether, instead of just supressing it down, this helps dogs who struggle with taking food and focusing around stuff that they fixate on do it far better. Over time the dog will start to see things he wants to chase or pull towards and offer you engagement and focus on automatic to avoid the correction. The higher the intensity you can make the intital conditioning and training phase the better responses youll get off the dog. After the dog can easily engage with you around all that sort of stuff, then you can start phasing out engagement where you dont need it and shaping neutrality and loose leash etc.

 

[noahsk]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Gotcha! Thank you so much for giving a thorough and simple explanation.

It helps so much! Hubby just bought more hotdogs (since it's the highest reinforced that isn't peanut butter or a dog) and will try this.

Thank you!

 

[faithisking]

@noahsk Look into Grisha Stewart's leash handling skills - her belay method might work for you as well

 

[noahsk]

@faithisking Ty for the recommendation!

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@noahsk No one collar or harness is going to magically make your dog stop pulling. You need to communicate that pulling is not acceptable. When your dog pulls, you need to stop walking altogether. Only continue with a loose leash. Reward with a treat when he walks calmly by your side. You can find videos about teaching dogs to walk at heel.

 

[noahsk]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Yes I know communication is key but most tips (videos and articles) hasn't been working. Idk of its because he's part rott part husky part reactive rescue.

He isn't food motivated even the hotdogs or meatballs he loves he won't take as a reward.

So the basic cornerstone of Reward is hard to fulfill when anything besides another dog is significantly less rewarding.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@noahsk Dog training takes a lot of time. For example, it took six months before my GSD/husky mix started to be less leash reactive towards other dogs.

Have you tried training him on an empty stomach? He may be more food motivated when he's hungry.

He may also just not be ready for walking outside. Do you have a yard? If so, then start off only walking him on leash in the yard, so he gets the idea of leash training while in a controlled environment.

 

[noahsk]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Not walking is not an option. Exercise helps lessen his anxiety.

Leash reactivity has improved in the year we've had him. He no longer pulls towards other leashed dogs or pulls towards cats.

We used to have a yard in our old place but our new place doesn't. We are hoping to find a new place when our lease ends next year with a tall fenced yard.

 

[chanchunming]

@noahsk The prong collar is a communication tool. You use it to speak a new language to your dog. To start with, you want to teach the language in a controlled setting. Start at home. Walk together. He gets a pop and stern “No” if he does anything other than walk at your side. If he even looks in your direction, he gets praise. Start in 1 minute increments then build up. Eventually you will stop having to pop, or only very rarely. Then you can go outdoors to an isolated area, the graduate to an outdoor area with a few other people, and so on. Over time, your dog will meta-learn that he can be calm and obedient in many different settings. This will instill confidence and he will calm himself further. Be consistent. It will work.

 

[noahsk]

@chanchunming Thank you for this step-by-step progression/explanation!

It works really well for my brain

Edit: also now that you mentioned it I never saw/heard advice on starting inside the house for leash training. Usually it's driveway or empty parking lot. But it makes sense cause you usually teach other skills at the house first like sit/lay.

Definitely will try this since pup gets distracted even in the driveway with reinforcers.

 

[lukeyg7]

@noahsk I’ve also heard that everytime you walk and they start to pull, stop, make them sit and give you attention, then keep going. That along with random turns, stops, and redirections help get your dog to focus on you instead of everything else it either wants to see or get away from.