brothersnook
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@soulsearcher57 Agreed. It’s how the lead is being used and the personality of the dog.
In the wiki it states that prong collars, e collars, and chokes can cause intimidation. Is a slip lead a “choke”?
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elizabeda777
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@brothersnook Anything can become aversive. Things that inflict pain/distress fit the aversive bill.
Full disclosure: My dog is using a slip lead as we work on adjusting him to handling (spine pain). I avoid all dogs and handle him differently on leash to avoid choking. Our trainer approved it and tbh I want him off this thing ASAP as harnesses are much kinder to his body.
The choking generated by the slip leash is aversive, it causes pain and restricts breathing. It sure as hell doesn’t prevent the behaviors but does make performing them more unpleasant.
Another, huge, issue with slip leads is that they are generally very thin. The stricture from tightening is much worse than, say, from a 1.5” tall collar. Think garrote vs scarf. They just aren’t a good tool, but they can be serviceable equipment, in a pinch.
Full disclosure: My dog is using a slip lead as we work on adjusting him to handling (spine pain). I avoid all dogs and handle him differently on leash to avoid choking. Our trainer approved it and tbh I want him off this thing ASAP as harnesses are much kinder to his body.
The choking generated by the slip leash is aversive, it causes pain and restricts breathing. It sure as hell doesn’t prevent the behaviors but does make performing them more unpleasant.
Another, huge, issue with slip leads is that they are generally very thin. The stricture from tightening is much worse than, say, from a 1.5” tall collar. Think garrote vs scarf. They just aren’t a good tool, but they can be serviceable equipment, in a pinch.
brothersnook
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@elizabeda777 Causes pain and restricts breathing if the dog is pulling, right? I totally agree it can be aversive if used improperly or with an untrained dog.
My dogs listen to verbal commands to heel so I’m not “popping” or really putting any tension on the leash. But I’m seriously considering just moving away from it all together now. But it’s not really a problem for me right now. My pups get so happy when I pull out the leads.
On another note, I’m wishing your dog a speedy recovery and you can get them back on a leash they’re comfortable with.
My dogs listen to verbal commands to heel so I’m not “popping” or really putting any tension on the leash. But I’m seriously considering just moving away from it all together now. But it’s not really a problem for me right now. My pups get so happy when I pull out the leads.
On another note, I’m wishing your dog a speedy recovery and you can get them back on a leash they’re comfortable with.
elizabeda777
New member
@brothersnook Yeah it’s really only an issue if the dog pulls (I imagine with regular-ish dogs that it’s a surprise squirrel or something). My dog only really pulls around triggers but it’s enough to make me cry lol. And I even wind the leash under his front leg so I kinda pull him down, rather than up (like a front clip harness). For me the potential is too great a risk for casual use, rather than necessity. But like I said, needs must and if a slip lead works best for your dog in terms of dog or human (dis)ability then it’s really judgement call.
I only recently found out that martingales can have a “stop” point which is great for escape artists, so I’m much less leery of them. For me it’s about proper tool use as much as what the tool is (a properly used e-collar still causes pain, for example). I have found myself becoming far less judgemental as I see people with their dogs. I used to get sad to see dogs on slip leads and now here I am doing my best
. I’m now a “whatever works as safely and humanely as possible” sorta person .
As an aside, do your slip leashes have stop tabs? (question more for thought) It doesn’t quite negate the choking, but it’s an appreciable difference in safety measures as much as you can with that leash type. Any collar or leash can choke, it’s just that slips are designed with less safety in mind (again, thin rope vs wide collar). Dogs can get positively conditioned to things like seeing prongs bc they know a walk is coming and walks are their passion. But then if the prong is used on the walk it’s a whole cascade of “stuff.” So unfortunately we can’t exclusively rely on them to gauge whether something is appropriate. Love how they don’t come with individualized user manuals, that would save us so much grief lol.
Best of luck on your journey! Thank you for the well wishes!
I only recently found out that martingales can have a “stop” point which is great for escape artists, so I’m much less leery of them. For me it’s about proper tool use as much as what the tool is (a properly used e-collar still causes pain, for example). I have found myself becoming far less judgemental as I see people with their dogs. I used to get sad to see dogs on slip leads and now here I am doing my best
. I’m now a “whatever works as safely and humanely as possible” sorta person .As an aside, do your slip leashes have stop tabs? (question more for thought) It doesn’t quite negate the choking, but it’s an appreciable difference in safety measures as much as you can with that leash type. Any collar or leash can choke, it’s just that slips are designed with less safety in mind (again, thin rope vs wide collar). Dogs can get positively conditioned to things like seeing prongs bc they know a walk is coming and walks are their passion. But then if the prong is used on the walk it’s a whole cascade of “stuff.” So unfortunately we can’t exclusively rely on them to gauge whether something is appropriate. Love how they don’t come with individualized user manuals, that would save us so much grief lol.
Best of luck on your journey! Thank you for the well wishes!
brothersnook
New member
@elizabeda777 My slips all have stop tabs.
elizabeda777
New member
@brothersnook Awesome! I would argue that the stop tabs make it less of a hazard.
@brothersnook It depends how you use it in my opinion. I don’t think a slip is inherently punishing like a prong or e collar is. You can use a slip gently without putting pressure on the dog and without using it as a corrective device. They sell slips with two locks on it so it can’t choke the dog.
brothersnook
New member
@airamnire I agree with you. However this sub seems to be leaning toward a no slip lead training style. And tbh, I get it. Though the opinions do vary and many agree that it depends on how they’re being used.
bushido8000
New member
@brothersnook Slip leads are generally considered aversive tools, since they are often used in the same manner as a choke chain (cue auto mod message lol). However, there are those who consider them less aversive than choke chains, because they are generally made of fabric and not metal, but they can cause just as much pain/discomfort, depending on how they are used.
I think some clarification would be helpful here - you say you are using a slip lead for training purposes - effectively - but loose leash. What is bringing about the "effective" part? Are you leash popping? Tightening down on the slip lead (or allowing it to tighten down)? Or just using it like any other leash - in which case, why not just use any other leash?
With all of that said, I do use a slip lead in VERY limited circumstances - specifically at agility trials. The venue I compete in used to not allow dogs to wear collars when running. We were also expected to be able to very quickly get any leash/collar/harness off our dog at the start line, and similarly to very quickly get our dogs leashed back up and out of the ring at the end of our run. A slip lead provided a very easy solution to all of that as it basically served as a combo collar and leash that could be removed/put back on in a second, and it is what I used to bring my dog from the crating area to the ring and back again. BUT... the dogs I've used that with did not pull, even at trials - the lead was always loose and only on them for a short distance/time. If I had a dog that pulled in that setting, I would never use a slip lead with them.
I think some clarification would be helpful here - you say you are using a slip lead for training purposes - effectively - but loose leash. What is bringing about the "effective" part? Are you leash popping? Tightening down on the slip lead (or allowing it to tighten down)? Or just using it like any other leash - in which case, why not just use any other leash?
With all of that said, I do use a slip lead in VERY limited circumstances - specifically at agility trials. The venue I compete in used to not allow dogs to wear collars when running. We were also expected to be able to very quickly get any leash/collar/harness off our dog at the start line, and similarly to very quickly get our dogs leashed back up and out of the ring at the end of our run. A slip lead provided a very easy solution to all of that as it basically served as a combo collar and leash that could be removed/put back on in a second, and it is what I used to bring my dog from the crating area to the ring and back again. BUT... the dogs I've used that with did not pull, even at trials - the lead was always loose and only on them for a short distance/time. If I had a dog that pulled in that setting, I would never use a slip lead with them.
brothersnook
New member
@bushido8000 The effective part is guiding. So say the dog is smelling something but the rest of the pack wants to walk, I’d give a pull and they start walking with me again. It’s not a pop, but a tug where the dog just sort of snaps out of the sniff to catch up.
One of my dogs several years ago was elderly and I used a retractable with him on a harness because he walked so slow and like to sniff around.
I’m not opposed to harnesses and leashes. Just looking for this subs opinion on the slip lead since it seems like a popular training tool online.
It’s been interesting to read the responses because the passion and the reasoning for and against slips seems to vary widely.
One of my dogs several years ago was elderly and I used a retractable with him on a harness because he walked so slow and like to sniff around.
I’m not opposed to harnesses and leashes. Just looking for this subs opinion on the slip lead since it seems like a popular training tool online.
It’s been interesting to read the responses because the passion and the reasoning for and against slips seems to vary widely.
@brothersnook It definitely can choke if dog gets excited plus it can easily get loose enough a dog can slip one. I've got a brand new rescue who specializes in doing untangling the leash moves so the slip she came with ends up around her belly. She's on house arrest [she sees zero need for a 2 week shutdown] so no danger she'll get lost but I found a martingale collar and leash for her anyway.
You can sew a ring at the point it makes a snug collar and another at the point it's easy to slide off to make one into a limited slip though. I like that it's minimal hardware but they don't unspin themselves like a martingale plus leash and they are no longer one size fits all. Super handy to have for supervised late night potty trips.
You can sew a ring at the point it makes a snug collar and another at the point it's easy to slide off to make one into a limited slip though. I like that it's minimal hardware but they don't unspin themselves like a martingale plus leash and they are no longer one size fits all. Super handy to have for supervised late night potty trips.
brothersnook
New member
@swill314 Interesting. Im going to look into the martingale. I get that they can choke, but are they considered a “choke” as referenced in the wiki? I use slip leads on all my dogs (3 current, but I’ve trained about 6-10 dogs in my life) with these slip leads. My dogs don’t pull and are not reactive, so they’ve never choked when using the slip lead. I use them for convenience, more or less, because I can put any slip lead on any dog. Slide it over their head and they’re ready to go.
sookie1953
New member
@brothersnook Martingales should not choke; they’re meant to stop at a certain point and aim to prevent dogs (esp those with atypical structure, like sighthounds) from slipping out. A martingale that chokes is not fitted properly.
@brothersnook A slip lead on an untrained dog will be a choke. The dog will lean into it, and cause it to be tight. Most slip leads don't then release the pressure, so now you have a tight collar and lead on the dog. You have to manually adjust the collar to make it slack again, and most people aren't going to do that over and over with an untrained dog.
@brothersnook I don't use prong collars for every dog, or even for most dogs. But when I do, I actually put one on myself and let owners correct me with it, so they can see that it doesn't hurt and isn't meant to hurt. The problem is that there are a lot of people who don't have correct timing or pressure, so it's not a tool for everyone. I look at them like a surgeon's scalpel: it's a specialized tool designed to help when all other options are ineffective. But, just like a scalpel, you have to be trained how to use it properly, otherwise you can hurt someone accidentally.