Trainer wants to use prong/e-collar on my dog
- Thread starter catherinenosleep
- Start date
@monk58 A fair number of people don't seek professional training at all or seek it only for puppy/basic obedience classes and not to correct problem behaviors. As for trainers and even IAABC behavior consultants, a fair number of them have concerns for taking on reactivity cases -- concerns if a dog is aggressive toward them and they get injured; concerns that if an owner isn't fully compliant with training or even doesn't know to mention a certain behavior or trigger, that blame gets passed back to the trainer (if not in terms of professional liability, than in terms of damage to reputation), etc. Plus, if there's a shortage of trainers (or good trainers) in general in an area, the ones that are there may have full schedules just doing puppy or basic obedience or dog sport classes and never really look to do consultations for other issues.
@janieve That's really sad. For the dogs and the owners
The difficult cases are where the most help is needed surely but it makes sense that taking the easier cases is a better business model. Always fresh puppies coming up if the older dogs are disposed of
I guess I got lucky and got a trainer who runs a school with multiple trainers and the classes you mention but takes the "interesting" cases as well
She is at that stage in her career. Mind you mine is simple frustration reactivity but I know she was doing a fear consult with the woman who recommended me. I must ask her if she tackles more aggressive cases
The difficult cases are where the most help is needed surely but it makes sense that taking the easier cases is a better business model. Always fresh puppies coming up if the older dogs are disposed of
I guess I got lucky and got a trainer who runs a school with multiple trainers and the classes you mention but takes the "interesting" cases as well
She is at that stage in her career. Mind you mine is simple frustration reactivity but I know she was doing a fear consult with the woman who recommended me. I must ask her if she tackles more aggressive cases
@catherinenosleep As everyone else has mentioned, absolutely find another trainer. Check out this website to see if there are any Fear Free Certified trainers in your area!
catherinenosleep
New member
@catherinenosleep Please I beg of you don’t listen to this trainer! This is all extremely outdated training methods. If you are in America check out AKC.org and the American veterinary medical association AVMA.com for up dated scientifically proven approaches to dog training. For her to say that this dog is exhibiting fear reactivity based on a phone call alone without even bothering to do an in person temperament evaluation is all you need to tell you they don’t know how to properly asses behavior. We Trainers do not tell people what’s wrong with their dog based on a phone call alone! Punishment can work temporarily because for a while the dog is still frightened of the trigger but they are even more frightened of the pain you will inflict on them if they express that fear. So basically they have to shut down emotionally to get through the day. This isn’t how you want your dog to live or to feel afraid of you. This kind of training only ever works for two or three years tops before the dog just can’t take it anymore and starts acting out even worse. If you aren’t in the U.S. then I’m sure you can find websites for organizations that are equivalent to the ones i mentioned above and they’ll tell you the same thing as me. Most of them also provide resources for how to find truly qualified trainers to help with your current reactivity issues.
catherinenosleep
New member
@tinshield We definitely aren’t going with this trainer - we weren’t planning to after the phone call anyhow, but definitely not after all the advice given here. I am in the US so I’ll definitely check out those websites! 
I just picked up my dog from daycare and she was so happy & excited to see me, and I don’t want to do anything to her that would cause her to look at me any other way or to fear me so we will definitely be staying away from any pain-based training!
I just picked up my dog from daycare and she was so happy & excited to see me, and I don’t want to do anything to her that would cause her to look at me any other way or to fear me so we will definitely be staying away from any pain-based training!@catherinenosleep Oh? does she play well with other dogs off leash?
catherinenosleep
New member
@tinshield Her daycare says she does great there, and she’s been to other daycares that have said the same. She’s iffy about dogs when my husband and I are present, so we want to work with a trainer to figure out why that is. We used to bring her to the dog park but we no longer do because I think it gave her some anxiety, particularly when other dogs approached either myself or my husband. She has some dog friends and does well one-on-one as long as the other dog isn’t too rough or trying to pin her to the ground, that sort of thing. Her reactivity is mostly based around children, dogs when she’s on-leash, and dogs approaching myself or my husband off-leash. We’re thinking it has to do with her trying to protect us because she gets in between us and any other dogs that come near us, but we definitely want to meet with a trainer to get some expert advice on that!
@catherinenosleep Hmmm…this really sounds a lot more like she’s resource guarding you guys. The fact that she’s okay off leash but reactive on leash sounds way more in line with barrier or leash frustration. But again you need someone to actually look at how she’s behaving in these situations to be able to determine what driving it. As for kids, it’s pretty common for GSD’s and shepherds in general, to be nervous about them because they are a touch sensitive breed. They can be very snuggly with people they know and trust but they aren’t known for enjoying being pet or handled by strangers.
I taught my own English shepherd to “Wave hello”
So that when people ask if they can pet her I’m able to say “she doesn’t really like to be pet but she’ll wave hello to you if wave to her”. It’s always a big hit and it makes me feel more comfortable refusing people who want to pet her without feeling rude
I taught my own English shepherd to “Wave hello”
So that when people ask if they can pet her I’m able to say “she doesn’t really like to be pet but she’ll wave hello to you if wave to her”. It’s always a big hit and it makes me feel more comfortable refusing people who want to pet her without feeling rude
catherinenosleep
New member
@tinshield Aww her waving hello is adorable!
Our dog absolutely adores people - can’t get enough of humans and wants to constantly be pet and played with and paid attention to. It’s only really dogs approaching us and children that she’s iffy with, so we’re hoping a trainer will be able to help us with that
I hadn’t thought about her resource guarding us! I always think of resource guarding as more so having to do with food or toys and not necessarily people, but that would make sense. I’ll mention it when we find a trainer we want to work with!
Our dog absolutely adores people - can’t get enough of humans and wants to constantly be pet and played with and paid attention to. It’s only really dogs approaching us and children that she’s iffy with, so we’re hoping a trainer will be able to help us with that
I hadn’t thought about her resource guarding us! I always think of resource guarding as more so having to do with food or toys and not necessarily people, but that would make sense. I’ll mention it when we find a trainer we want to work with!
@catherinenosleep Some dogs absolutely resource guard their people. Not sure if that’s what your dog is doing but it’s definitely possible
@catherinenosleep i just want to chime in and reassure you that it sounds like you are absolutely doing right by your dog. you are not “rewarding aggression” by using positive reinforcement techniques to train your dog. you are not “bribing” your dog by using treats as a training tool and aid. you are trusting your instincts about people who would not prioritize your dog’s well being and best interests.
i’m so sorry that you’re stressed out about this woman and the demeaning way she spoke to you, about living somewhere rural and not having access to a ton of resources for training etc, and that you are also trying to establish a behavioral management system for your dog’s reactivity and struggling to find the best fit.
you are a good pet parent. you are not messing up or worsening your dog’s reactivity. and it should get easier. even if the reactivity never improves, you’ll get better at managing it and advocating for your dog. you’re already doing great.
there are tons of resources on this subreddit (others have linked the wiki, and cited good places to find helpful info) and it is a very supportive community should you need help or validation again. i feel horribly that this woman has shaken your confidence so much. best of luck on your reactivity journey!
i’m so sorry that you’re stressed out about this woman and the demeaning way she spoke to you, about living somewhere rural and not having access to a ton of resources for training etc, and that you are also trying to establish a behavioral management system for your dog’s reactivity and struggling to find the best fit.
you are a good pet parent. you are not messing up or worsening your dog’s reactivity. and it should get easier. even if the reactivity never improves, you’ll get better at managing it and advocating for your dog. you’re already doing great.
there are tons of resources on this subreddit (others have linked the wiki, and cited good places to find helpful info) and it is a very supportive community should you need help or validation again. i feel horribly that this woman has shaken your confidence so much. best of luck on your reactivity journey!
catherinenosleep
New member
@hldawson3 Thank you so much! Definitely feeling more confident in what we’ve been doing now. We just finished a quick 5 minute training outside (kick a ball, call her back to me, reward when she comes) and she did great so I’m feeling optimistic going forward and excited to find a trainer to help us! I’m going to spend some time tonight reading the resources that were given and looking for a different trainer
@catherinenosleep you’re a good pet parent! i’m sorry this trainer rattled your confidence but you’ve got this
also that training sesh sounds like a fun idea!! i might try to incorporate something similar, im trying to get my dog excited about playing fetch or catch outside (herding dogs
)
also that training sesh sounds like a fun idea!! i might try to incorporate something similar, im trying to get my dog excited about playing fetch or catch outside (herding dogs
)rassowee12
New member
@catherinenosleep I use a prong collar on my dog. I’ll start there. I know where this group stands on them. But I’m going to side with everyone else on find another trainer. This trainer sounds like an idiot. Even with proper balanced training treats and distractions from triggers are NORMAL. Keep on the hunt for a trainer who you feel comfortable with!
janimelody
New member
@catherinenosleep We have 2 reactive GSDs and we were able to manage their dog/people reactivity using positive reinforcement. Find a different trainer
tranikamarie
New member
@catherinenosleep As a positive trainer who specializes in fear and aggression rehab, the misguided worry about "rewarding aggression" is one of my biggest pet peeves.
They are biologically incompatible concepts.
A dog who experiences positive emotions when seeing a stimulus with NOT show an aggressive response, period. Change the emotional response and you will change the behavior.
I've successfully reconditioned enough dogs that I've lost count.
My own dog, an intact male Akita (a breed known for dog aggression) went through a phase of reactivity and dominance aggression when he hit sexual maturity. He was 100% the type of dog people would stop taking around other dogs and just write off as not social with other dogs. We worked through it, and now he's the LEAST likely dog to fight at any park or beach we go to, taking other dogs displaying dominance or aggression in stride and avoiding conflict. I dogsit and do board and train, and he adapts himself to other dogs coming into our home, his territory, with grace and kindness. People who see him now constantly express awe at how excellent he is, and people who know the breed are shocked. We got here by me literally pushing food into his face WHILE he reacted to other dogs, "bribing" to lure him away from fence fighting, petting and praising him a ton, and punishing him NONE.
Consider sports and jobs where aggression is desirable and intentionally increased. How do they accomplish that? They sure as hell aren't calling the dog away and giving it a treat. They increase arousal by allowing the dog to stay focused on the stimulus and by adding further stressful and agitating stimuli like restraint, yelling, prongs, estim, physical contact, etc. You know, the things owners of reactive dogs tend to do accidentally.
It blows my mind that this person could simultaneously recognize that an aggressive response usually comes from fear and yet also advocate for corrections.
They are biologically incompatible concepts.
A dog who experiences positive emotions when seeing a stimulus with NOT show an aggressive response, period. Change the emotional response and you will change the behavior.
I've successfully reconditioned enough dogs that I've lost count.
My own dog, an intact male Akita (a breed known for dog aggression) went through a phase of reactivity and dominance aggression when he hit sexual maturity. He was 100% the type of dog people would stop taking around other dogs and just write off as not social with other dogs. We worked through it, and now he's the LEAST likely dog to fight at any park or beach we go to, taking other dogs displaying dominance or aggression in stride and avoiding conflict. I dogsit and do board and train, and he adapts himself to other dogs coming into our home, his territory, with grace and kindness. People who see him now constantly express awe at how excellent he is, and people who know the breed are shocked. We got here by me literally pushing food into his face WHILE he reacted to other dogs, "bribing" to lure him away from fence fighting, petting and praising him a ton, and punishing him NONE.
Consider sports and jobs where aggression is desirable and intentionally increased. How do they accomplish that? They sure as hell aren't calling the dog away and giving it a treat. They increase arousal by allowing the dog to stay focused on the stimulus and by adding further stressful and agitating stimuli like restraint, yelling, prongs, estim, physical contact, etc. You know, the things owners of reactive dogs tend to do accidentally.
It blows my mind that this person could simultaneously recognize that an aggressive response usually comes from fear and yet also advocate for corrections.
catherinenosleep
New member
@tranikamarie Thank you so much for your response! Especially the part about how aggression is purposefully increased - it makes so much sense looking at it from the opposite perspective. And it helps reading success stories from those who’ve used positive reinforcement to help their dogs with their reactivity. The trainer told me I’d never get to a place where my dog would be 100% around other dogs and children, which I’d be ok with as long as she’s not stressed and anxious around them (we just want what’s best for her) but its hard to believe that when there are success stories out there and she hasn’t even met my dog!
tranikamarie
New member
@catherinenosleep Maybe she doesn't believe that a dog can get to that point because her methods prevent actual healing.
The advice she's giving and presumably what she's doing to dogs who are put in her care is very upsetting to hear about. Those of us fighting the good fight tend to put in so much more work and research making sure that we are doing the right thing and being ethical and such, and then you see people like that out there unashamedly spouting harmful and dangerous bs and it just makes your blood boil!!
The advice she's giving and presumably what she's doing to dogs who are put in her care is very upsetting to hear about. Those of us fighting the good fight tend to put in so much more work and research making sure that we are doing the right thing and being ethical and such, and then you see people like that out there unashamedly spouting harmful and dangerous bs and it just makes your blood boil!!