Trainer wants to use prong/e-collar on my dog

[jonowebb]

@catherinenosleep In reality she’s right but we’ve learned that both humans and animals respond far better to positive reinforcement.
I had a trainer once explain it to me like this.

Say, I’m afraid like super afraid of spiders. Every time I’m even near one i go crazy. Screaming and crying.
You can punish me for that severely and I might end up no longer screaming and crying when I see or am near a spider because the negative consequence is too severe…but, I will still be afraid of spiders.

So with reactivity that is fear based we try to change the emotion NOT the behavior. By changing the emotion we will lead to change the behavior because no fear or less fear equals no freak out.

So let’s say I’m still afraid of spiders but now I’m being conditioned to associate spiders with something good. Every time I even see a spider I get a slice of apple pie. This happens over and over to the point where when i see a spider I already start drooling expecting a slice of apple pie. I’m starting to become neutral towards the spider and even can be closer to the spider than before because I know that spider means apple pie = good.

I may never become completely comfortable with the spider to the point where I will touch it but some might. I will at least no longer feel fearful seeing a spider.

 

[bushido8000]

@catherinenosleep OMG that "analogy" is impressive both in terms of how ridiculous is, and how inapplicable it is. It never fails to amaze me the depths to which people who use aversives go to rationalize their use, despite scientific evidence that doesn't support it (plus there's that "pesky" inhumane part).

The thing is, speeding is not an emotionally driven response. I choose to speed because I want to get somewhere faster, knowing I'm taking a risk of being pulled over and getting a ticket. To make her analogy work, we would have to have a scenario where, let's say, I'm horribly afraid when I see a vehicle behind me in my rear view mirror. I'm so scared that car behind me is going to hit me and cause me serious injury that I speed to get away from it. So then I get a ticket. That doesn't deter me from future speeding, because I'm still so scared that I'd rather get another ticket than be right in front of that car behind me. Obviously this is super far-fetched, but she's doing an apples to oranges comparison and not even realizing it.

Also, if a prong collar mimics a dog correcting a dog (not really, but ok...), how exactly does an e-collar mimic a dog correcting a dog? Last I checked, dogs don't have the ability to electronically shock another dog... SMDH.

 

[mykell]

@catherinenosleep Like the other commenter said, find another trainer. It’s not cool that they cut you off and told you everything you’re doing is wrong when the advice they’re trying to give is harmful. No trainer should make you cry or feel awful. You’re doing the right things and are most definitely not rewarding aggression!

 

[catherinenosleep]

@mykell Thank you! I was definitely very discouraged after I talked with her and wasn’t sure if we should find another trainer or if this was just how all trainers are. We are definitely going to look for another trainer now after reading that they are not all like that. Whew, I feel so much better now. I’ve had a knot in my stomach since yesterday and I feel like I can breathe easier knowing there are better trainers out there that will work with us to help our pup

 

[xypher101]

@catherinenosleep As everyone else said, this trainer doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Even their comment about behaviorists. You will not find a board certified veterinary behaviorist who uses aversive methods. You will find people who call themselves behaviorists that do, but not actual, educated, licensed behaviorists. Treats are not bribes. You don’t need to be “alpha”. You don’t need to correct. Your dog is having a big emotional response and the training plan needs to focus on changing their emotions towards the trigger, not the reaction itself. Which can be frustrating and time consuming but SO worth it in the end. Such a good thing you recognized this for what it was and won’t be training with her. If a dog is acting out of fear, the fallout that aversives can cause is horrific.

 

[catherinenosleep]

@xypher101 Thank you! My husband said much of what everyone here is saying but it helps so much to be getting an outside perspective! I’m excited to show him this post later so we can look for a different trainer together and continue using positive reinforcement I’m so relieved that the general consensus is that we shouldn’t use the methods the trainer suggested

 

[ryukyu]

@catherinenosleep Just want to echo what everyone else is saying, this trainer doesn’t know what she’s talking about. Punishment free methods can absolutely be used to train reactivity, and are scientifically supported. Myself and lots of people in this community have had great success “rewarding our dogs for being aggressive.” I’m glad you realize there was something wrong with her comments, best of luck finding a trainer that will work with you using force free methods.

If you’re not familiar, engage/disengage is a great game for working on leash reactivity.

 

[catherinenosleep]

@ryukyu I haven’t heard of that term “engage/disengage” before - I’ll definitely look into that! Thank you!

 

[ryukyu]

@catherinenosleep It’s very similar to what you already do, with rewarding the dog for looking away from the trigger. The link I provided should give you enough info to get started if it’s something you think will be helpful

 

[messi]

@catherinenosleep I will start by saying I myself am not a trainer , but i know several trainers.

DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS CHICK.

From my experience , e collars only make the behaviours worse because you add fear and pain to an already complicated array of emotions your dog is trying to deal with.

As for prong collars - I only ever recommend them to elderly or frail people who have very large dogs that they cannot physically hang onto if they pull.
Plus once you start walking your dog on a prong you’ll likely never be able to walk them without it again as they’ll find out the difference real fast.

Positive reinforcement is the way to go.

Also using treats may be a bribe to some but it’s a reward nonetheless and there’s no age limit on treat training.

And you aren’t rewarding her for being aggressive. You’re rewarding her for focusing on you and not reacting.

Find yourself a new trainer that aligns with your goals and values cuz this chick will ruin your dog.

 

[catherinenosleep]

@messi Thank you! You’re all making me feel a lot better about our decision to not go with this trainer or her methods. We’re going to do some research with the resources that were given here and I’m hoping to find a trainer that is willing to work with us (my husband and me and our dog, not just my dog)!

 

[messi]

@catherinenosleep You’re very welcome! Good luck

Also- don’t let anyone make you feel shitty , you seem to be doing all the right things , your girl is a tricky mix of breeds and you’re doing a dang good job

 

[catherinenosleep]

@messi Thank you so much! She’s definitely tricky! Very stubborn and very smart - if she doesn’t want to sit when we tell her to, she’ll often “talk back” as she slowly sits we’re doing our best to train her and help her with her reactivity but we are definitely looking into a trainer to help us out because she’s very headstrong and we want to make sure we’re doing everything we can for her!

 

[messi]

@catherinenosleep The “talking” is the husky coming out haha

And all three breeds can be quite stubborn but you’re doing great

 

[catherinenosleep]

@messi She’s also got some Akita and chow in her (did the DNA test, haha). A strong mix of stubborn breeds for sure!

 

[messi]

@catherinenosleep Oh yeah that’s a whole lotta stubborn

 

[monk58]

@catherinenosleep Don't do it!

She sounds awful!

This is not a normal dog trainer where I come from (UK) and following it would have all the risks of making your dog associate pain with the trigger and making the poor dog more fearful. I know the US vet societies etc think likewise!

You are not rewarding aggression... you reward the look at me and the calm....! The choice to self regulate and disengage. You are also assoicating the trigger witha positive (BAT training)

I think you need a good positive trainer who teaches you about keeping the dog below thresh hold and marking the calm behaviour in the right place

This series will maybe help reassure you and get you started

How awful people like that are out there still using junk science to harm animals and owners!!!

If you can find a good positive trainer they will give you the skills

I had the same issue as you..,, without the asshole trainer. Too many people saying aggressive about my frustrater greeter. I was however lucky to get a super experienced trainer who was pretty chill and calm and said you build a relationship with a dog. None of this dominating nonsense

Not that I ever believed any of that!

Forgot to add distance from the trigger is the single most important thing I learnt. Then your dog feels OK and can think and engage with you

 

[catherinenosleep]

@monk58 Thank you! I am definitely going to look for another trainer. We have been doing our best to only use positive reinforcement so it was very disheartening to hear from a trainer that we have been doing everything wrong. We love our dog so much and the thought of dropping her off to be put in uncomfortable situations or even pain has made me cry more than once since the phone call, so it makes me feel so much better knowing that others agree that we shouldn’t do it!

 

[monk58]

@catherinenosleep I never understand this board and train. The dog trainer taught me skills not the dog!

How on earth does dropping them off help that

 

[janieve]

@monk58 I think, like you suggested, a lot of people misunderstand and think that the purpose of seeking a qualified trainer is for the dog to get training directly. I also think that there are people who are genuinely not confident in their dog handling skills -- and I think this can compound when it's a dog doing something scary-looking like being reactive or resource guarding -- and so a program where a professional trainer works with the dog first sounds tempting. I will also note that at least in my area, there's a shortage of good trainers in general and especially of trainers who are willing to take on dogs with reactivity and/or aggression issues -- and sometimes board and trains are the only places with anything like workable availability. My own current trainer wouldn't have taken Lucy and me on as clients if the trainer and I hadn't already had a past relationship around dogs.

I mean, I do think there are still people who are tempted by the sales pitch (because that's what it is) of only investing money (instead of money plus training time plus problem solving, etc.) and having one's dog come back "fixed." But I also think there are people who genuinely don't understand why it's not a good prospect -- or who have significant troubles finding good other options.