Prong collar for 8 month old after 3 months of leash training?

[goat__man]

Hey all! I've got an 8 month old Lab/Aussie mix puppy. He's incredibly smart and has picked up most commands (sit, down, place, wait, etc) very quickly. However, he's pretty brutal on the leash. He's about 50 pounds and is a strong boy, and pulls almost every step of the way. We have him in a front-lead harness, but he just cannot relax. He pulls so hard to the point that he's wheezing. He also displayed some leash reactivity when we first got him at 4 months old, but that has almost completely gone away with positive association. He's typically not so over threshold that he won't respond to food, but the moment he gets too excited - ie, after playing in the lake, or going somewhere with lots of smells and sounds - he just loses focus and I can't get him to refocus.

I was one of those people who said I would never use a prong collar, but after a lot of research and speaking to a trainer, I decided it was worth a try. When it came in, I spent time getting him used to just having it on, then tested it indoors. I took him on a test drive outside, and it was like I had a completely different dog. Not shut down/subdued, just calm, relaxed, and attentive. I was so excited, but then I did still more reading and some people were saying that prong collars just mask the root of the issue and exacerbate reactivity. He did not bark on the single prong-collar walk I took him on and I did not correct him for any kind of barking/whimpering/etc. But now I'm freaking out and thinking maybe I just need to try harder with treats again first. Thoughts?

 

[justjem]

@goat__man You sound like you are very responsible and went the right route slowly introducing the collar to your pup! If at any time you are concerned with something definitely inquire with your trainer again, but I'd say you're on the right track. The prong only becomes a bandaid and work improperly when the person doesn't put in the actual work and continue the training at home and in public on top of it too, but you don't seem like that type.

 

[goat__man]

@justjem Thank you! That makes me feel much better. That's more or less what I figured - I am not using it to try and fix reactivity, I'm using it with the goal of improving our communication and getting him to understand that good things happen when he listens to me (no pulling=loose leash).

 

[spectrehallow]

@goat__man I was a person that said they’d never use a prong or e collar. I adopted my first dog at 24, a collie mix and had 15 Forster dogs I worked with since then in addition to volunteering at the local shelter here and there. I am VERY good with all animals and have been my whole life. My first dog passed away this summer and I finally adopted a new dog three months ago. A 15 month old border collie. After trying literally EVERYTHING for six weeks and reading for a month I decided to get a prong. My life change that month. I change from a flat, to martingale, to prong, to general leader, to harness all the time. Sometimes I put on a prong or gentle leader and use the flat. After the first week of the prong he changed and even if I use the flat collar now it’s 90% better. My experience using it for the past two months is that no, it didn’t mask my dogs behavior, it made him pay attention and listen to me for the first time in his life. I also recently bought an e collar that I used on a level so low I can’t feel it on my own neck and when using it during training twenty minutes a day it’s vastly improved his listening with me. If it works for you dog and he doesn’t seem traumatized it is a good tool to work with. If you feel weird about it try a prong collar on your neck, it doesn’t hurt. The prong helped snap my dog out of a ton of very anxious and stressful behavior in a really short time so personally I now think in this dogs situation it was an amazing tool and I’m glad that I tried it out of much apprehension.

 

[goat__man]

@spectrehallow Funny you say that about the neck - our trainer was the one of the folks recommending a prong collar, and demonstrated that it does not cause any damage by tightening one around their arm. And to your other point, that's my goal with this guy. He has shown that he can master/proof other commands, so I believe that once he understands the mechanics behind heel walking, we can cycle between the front-clip, flat and martingale.

 

[heiwa]

@goat__man I recently started using prong collar with my pup (i’ve used it twice so far) after months of leash training. My girl gets very excited and difficult to get her to focus and engage with me when we are in new settings. She will pull once or twice in the prong and then chill out versus pull hard and persistently with a flat collar or a harness. She did get a lot better with training even before prong , but still pretty hard to handle at times.

Personally, I find the prong really useful so far. I was also worried about it just subduing and masking issues as well, but i’ve seen her body language and behavior when she’s stressed, anxious, scared and this is not anything like that. She does seem more relaxed to me when she knows pulling against the leash is no longer an option. That being said, i’m still very new to it so take this with a grain of salt as this is based off very limited experience.

 

[goat__man]

@heiwa This is exactly what I experienced. Like you, I'm not going to get my hopes up too high just yet; we only did one walk, he'd been playing a lot with my friend earlier so he was tired, and our environment was pretty low-stim. But he did SO MUCH better on it than even the first time I used a front-clip. He's so smart that I genuinely believe part of his behavior was due to not fully understanding what I wanted from him because he's too excited. With the prong collar, it was like he was finally getting it.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@heiwa Can I ask what type of prong did you get? Does it fit nicely with your young corgi?

I am glad you are starting to use one!

I think both of you will come to realize over the next few months that both of your dogs will begin to generalize the proper behavior for walks and other social activities.

My only additional advice is to keep expectations of a loose leash high, and to not let the dog get away with pulling. They can get used to prong sensation, and this is either from a lack of handler knowledge regarding how to use it, or poor training.

After 6 months, the dog should really understand how to walk in many environments, with high levels of distractions on a loose leash. When they understand this, y’all can start weaning it off!

 

[heiwa]

@imagebeastmarkbeast I got a herm sprenger prong! it’s a bit big for her, it eventually slips down from behind her ears to an inch behind her ears. if I take another prong it feels too tight though. thanks for the advice! I def will not let her get away with any tension on the leash

 

[bojan]

@goat__man So, there's nothing magic about a prong collar. My guess is what happened here is that you were nervous about using the prong, and decided to take it slow and really work on the foundations, which is awesome!

So often we just put a leash on a dog and head directly outside to walk them. We don't take the time to practice walking inside. We don't take the time to teach the dog how to give in to leash pressure. We don't take the time to set out clear expectations in a low distraction environment.

And I totally get it! You get a dog, that dog needs exercise, what else are you going to do but walk the dog? I think in many ways, that's actually a disservice to many dogs as we can exercise them in other ways while they're still learning how to walk on a leash.

So now, all your dog's learning history with the prong collar is very straightforward. He knows what's expected of him, and he doesn't have a huge history of being over-aroused, of being reactive, of hypervigilance while on the prong collar. To keep this going, you just gotta keep the good training going.

Introduce distractions gradually. Reward good behavior. Recognize when you need to work a bit more on the foundations because they're not quite up to par in a certain scenario.

 

[goat__man]

@bojan Thank you! Yes, that was such a hardcore realization when I first started working with him - leash-walking is such a "human" concept and not a dog one, and I really had to set my expectations around that instead of letting myself fall into the trap of, "You're so smart with everything else, why aren't you getting this?"

 

[soulstorm87]

@goat__man Agree with all the comments on how great a prong can be but I would watch out for the dog becoming "neck hard" over time. My dog (large lab x) was almost perfect the first few walks on the prong, it was night and day change and still is so much better than without but over time I got lazy and let him have a little bit of tension and now he is zero bothered with medium pulling on a prong and its been an ongoing struggle to get him out of that again. It still stops him from being able to pull me over or choke himself out (which he did with a flat, slip and martingale) but its annoying that he can pull and doesn't seem to feel it anymore. My dog will still listen thankfully and stop/sit when i tell him (and he naturally isn't reactive at all except with the squirrels lol) and we are working on heel turns and recall every walk and def seeing improvements but the prong isn't the miracle I had hoped at first!

 

[goat__man]

@soulstorm87 Thank you! Can you give a little more detail about getting "neck hard"? It sounds like what happened was that he got so great you began letting him tug/pull just a little bit, and then he started pulling a bit harder again even on the prong - is that correct?

 

[soulstorm87]

@goat__man yeah I'm not sure if its an actual term, I've just heard a couple trainers mention it before. Basically when they get used to some tension and become less sensitive to the prongs so it doesn't feel like correction anymore, its just mildly annoying. Like my dog has figured out that he can take some pressure and discomfort if it means he gets to sniff where he wants and do his own thing. Not a behavior I love so our walks include lots of heel turns, recall loops (he gets to end of leash I say "come" and he turns around and loops behind me and back in heel position), and stop and sits. It's def working but it takes time and some days he's more stubborn than others! I will say though that the prong is still our best option as anything else either chokes him out or give him to strength to pull me over (harness) - at least with a prong I still have pretty good control over him and his pulling is more annoying than inhibiting.

 

[wiseracoon]

@goat__man You can also train him to give in to leash pressure by working with him at home or in a low distraction environment and give me a treat anytime you pull on the leash and he comes to you

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@goat__man It’s crazy that if you tell a dog to cut something out effectively, and then show them what you want them to do - and reward that behavior, how easy owning a dog is lol.

People always down vote me when I tell them I could garauntee I could take their “reactive dog” to a brewery and be around people and other animals in 3-6 months of training with aversive’s without any issue.

I am very happy everyone who posted in this thread has opened their minds about how we can all improve our relationship with dogs - AND ALSO not equate a little pop on a damn prong collar with dragging the dog behind a car for miles down a dirt road, like most positive and force free only people would want you to believe.

It really changes peoples lives, and gives the handlers A LOT of their own confidence when they feel like they can finally communicate with their dog in an effective manner.

Those dumb treat games are useless when used by themselves.

 

[goat__man]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Omg, THIS. When we were using the front-clip, the trainer showed both of us how to give a proper correction (quick pop of the leash when he stepped out of heel, not pulling/dragging). However, we are both small people and do not have a lot of upper body strength (the trainer did), so we could not deliver an appropriate correction. That was largely what convinced me to buy the prong collar - basically, it's just way more effective communication, and I'm not having to dislocate a shoulder and potentially hurt either one of us to do so.

 

[jacke71]

@goat__man It looks pretty rough doesn't it, and that's what people don't seem to understand, to be effective with a harness you have to put so much more energy into it, I turn my slip leash into a figure 8 that goes over the snout if the Rotty is misbehaving and I feel like I will have to use it, because I use next to no energy or strength for the same result, she has a huge neck so when its around her neck she can stop in her tracks and rip my shoulder out still.... In fact I have some shoulder damage from playing with the tug with her... oops.

 

[jacke71]

@goat__man The prong collar does what any owner should do, correct bad behaviour, it applies more pressure to the neck and is usually used for small people or large dogs because its difficult to get the same amount of pressure with a slip leash, OR if the dog is not working on the slip leash and choking themselves on it a prong can be used to remove that factor.

So you didn't mask anything, you corrected it, make sure you let the dog know you love it, and that when it is not doing the bad behaviour that it gets all the love and praise and treats, it's not different to how dogs learn in the dog world, they show some teeth, growl, and if that fails the older dog gives the pup a bit of a pop to the flank or neck with the teeth, I have a 9 week old Rottweiler boy right now and he just does not care at all about any of the signs my adult Rottweiler is unhappy with him, and as soon as she does that (and doesn't hurt him), he looks at her, tilts his head, works out ok ok, fine, I'll leave you alone, and then 5 seconds later does it again.

It's just how dogs function, don't humanise them, they don't think like us, they don't have the same reasoning capabilities, so you need great timing, a little pop on the leash tied with your word NO or whatever it is, and eventually you will end up getting the same results with the word no, and not even need a leash. But always the least amount of pressure possible, for the desired result, and praise/love the good behaviour, if you are raising the dog correctly, you should almost never need to correct them, if you find yourself continuously correcting them, then it is generally your fault for putting them in a situation where they can do harm (like leaving them in the room and not crated and they eat the couch), or your corrections have no weight behind them and they are ignoring you.

The worst think you can ever do is try to bribe the dog to not do something, if it is doing an undesired behaviour, "luring" it with treats, just shows the dog you do this, I have treats, you get treats, it might eventually maybe lead them to want treats more than whatever it is they were doing, but they never learnt the undesirable behaviour was undesirable, just that they got treats yay!

But, that's my PoV, people probably won't agree, I suggest going down a notch to the slip leash, it's generally enough unless you are in real trouble, I use it every day and I don't really even need a leash now for the adult dog, puppy will need to work out the slip leash soon, but first I want him recalling on the flat lead if possible, again, least pressure possible to get desired result, if flat collar stops working we have tools to upgrade to, but generally its all about getting some weight behind this verbal corrections, the dog needs to know you mean business when you mean business, same as my kids, I don't have to use it much but when I tell them I am upset with them they don't ignore it, it carries weight. The funny thing is, I don't hit my kids or anything, perhaps because I am so calm and relaxed the majority of the time it is a huge contrast when I am upset?

Anyway, good luck!

 

[freerangechristian]

@goat__man We had our last two dogs (100lb & 65lb) professionally by a world renowned dog trainer, trained on prong collars. And boy were they the best trained dogs we ever had. No reactivity or masked issues, that’s usually the result of those that misuse the training tool and/or don’t understand the method... After about 18 months old (consistent training with those collars starting at 4 months old) while inside the house and outside the house, they were the same dogs when the collars came off. They were just thoroughly trained dogs til the day they died. We went that route because at the time we had small kids and big dogs, so we needed them to be trained. Now we have teenage kids and a small dog that I’m training myself using more positive reinforcement and a wide martingale collar for any corrections I feel needed, just to avoid trachea collapse which is common is small breeds. And his training is going really freaking well. Better than I expected coming from professionally trained dogs on prong collars. This method just takes a little longer because it’s more about conditioning with praise than it is about correction. I’m of the mind that you know your dog and your family situation best to know what type of training method will work for your particular situation. Just make sure you’re not pulling on that prong color more than a quick tug and immediate release. If he’s not responding then repeat the quick tug and immediate release. Never keep pressure on it for any prolonged period. That’s the proper way to use it. And try to find one of heavy grade metal, the prongs shouldn’t be pointy but more blunt. The cheap pointy ones can cause injury. The trainer we used ordered his from a German company specifically because they make a really good prong collar of heavier grade steel which lends towards creating more blunt prongs. Of course there’ll be naysayers who will disagree with just about everything I’ve said hereGood luck!