brothersnook
New member
I’ve always trained with a loose leash slip lead, effectively, but I don’t want to be in a position of intimidation. I’d rather be in a more positive training position. Advice/clarification is welcomed. TIA
In the wiki it states that prong collars, e collars, and chokes can cause intimidation. Is a slip lead a “choke”?
- Thread starter brothersnook
- Start date
-
- Tags
- question reactive dogs
@brothersnook I personally only use a slip lead for its easy application usually when I’m just taking my dog outside quickly and need a leash handy or moving her to my side house. For a dog that knows how to walk on a leash without pulling and understands leash pressure I don’t see it as aversive for my dog. I think it applies more in the sense of corrections with a slip lead.
@brothersnook I think slip leads are fine for emergency transport like at the vet, in shelters, or capturing a loose dog.
For training purposes, not recommended. Usually they’re used by positive punishment (add leash correction or pressure, tightening around neck)/negative reinforcement (take away pressure when dog Does The Thing You Want) contingencies.
Generally speaking it can be dangerous to have something tighten around the neck, damaging soft tissues and even vertebrae if a corrections are too frequent and harsh. Dogs can also have issues with breathing, nerve function, circulation to the head, and intraocular pressure (eyes bugging out). It does depend how the slip leash is being used and how mindful the human is to not add pressure.
For training purposes, not recommended. Usually they’re used by positive punishment (add leash correction or pressure, tightening around neck)/negative reinforcement (take away pressure when dog Does The Thing You Want) contingencies.
Generally speaking it can be dangerous to have something tighten around the neck, damaging soft tissues and even vertebrae if a corrections are too frequent and harsh. Dogs can also have issues with breathing, nerve function, circulation to the head, and intraocular pressure (eyes bugging out). It does depend how the slip leash is being used and how mindful the human is to not add pressure.
brothersnook
New member
@mykell Ok. I get that. Thanks for the clarification. This is exactly what I was looking for.
I was thinking it was more negative reinforcement and was a bit confused. Either way, i was reading that it wasn’t preferred. But my experience with slip leads have been nothing but positive. But for dogs that pull or lunge I can see how it would be more dangerous. Much appreciated.
I was thinking it was more negative reinforcement and was a bit confused. Either way, i was reading that it wasn’t preferred. But my experience with slip leads have been nothing but positive. But for dogs that pull or lunge I can see how it would be more dangerous. Much appreciated.
brothersnook
New member
@brothersnook Great question! I usually reward the dog where I want them, for a heel feed near seam of pants or on the ground near my feet; pattern games like 1-2-3; and silky leash method. It’s easier to teach in a low distraction environment first. Basically you’re building desired behaviors and chaining them together.
Don’t get suuuuper caught up in the quadrants of operant conditioning. Negative reinforcement is not always a bad thing, think moving away from trigger or an animal saying no to something as examples.
Don’t get suuuuper caught up in the quadrants of operant conditioning. Negative reinforcement is not always a bad thing, think moving away from trigger or an animal saying no to something as examples.
brothersnook
New member
brothersnook
New member
@brothersnook Imho martingale collars can be fine for dogs who aren’t super bad pullers, can learn quickly, and who have handling issues. The martingale leashes function like slip leashes from what I can tell. Otherwise I prefer y or h shaped harnesses.
For leashes I like Mendota, especially the longline (with the clip, not the slip leash). Biothane leashes are also cool. Really depends on your own comfort.
For leashes I like Mendota, especially the longline (with the clip, not the slip leash). Biothane leashes are also cool. Really depends on your own comfort.
brothersnook
New member
@mykell So that was confusing me about the comments. Because when I look at the martingale they’re basically choke chains integrated with a collar. So not sure how that isn’t considered a choke, if a slip lead would also be considered a choke.
I’ve also read in several books and seen on YouTube that harnesses encourage pulling.
I’m probably overthinking it at this point. My dogs are happy-go-lucky and living a good life.
Given the comments I’ll probably move away from slip leads to plain collars. I’m not so sure about harnesses yet, but I’ll look at the suggested leashes and collars. Thanks again and again
I’ve also read in several books and seen on YouTube that harnesses encourage pulling.
I’m probably overthinking it at this point. My dogs are happy-go-lucky and living a good life.
Given the comments I’ll probably move away from slip leads to plain collars. I’m not so sure about harnesses yet, but I’ll look at the suggested leashes and collars. Thanks again and again
@brothersnook You’re welcome!
The main difference between the martingale and regular slip is the martingale has a stopper so it can only tighten so much. There are martingales that have the chain and ones that look like regular flat collars. If a dog is a strong puller, it can choke on either.
The thing about harnesses causing pulling is a myth (marketing strategy for aversive tools and methods). The force of the pull can be stronger on a harness, sure, but equipment alone won’t cause pulling. This is why if someone doesn’t use “well-timed corrections” a dog will pull on a prong or slip.
Leash corrections (pop, tap, bump, tug the leash; euphemisms for punishment) are usually recommended in conjunction with prongs or slips but not by this sub and most other dog related subs. They work on the basis that it’s very unpleasant-dog decreases pulling to avoid the correction. Leash corrections are less effective on harnesses (why harnesses are demonized by some trainers) but can still be unpleasant to the dog. My dog experienced behavioral fallout from corrections on a harness btw.
Something else to consider is function of pulling-to get to something or away? Is the dog just moving fast (humans are slow)? Is the behavior of pulling reinforced by the human moving forward with tension in the leash?
I get the equipment and training methods are confusing. Dog training has no regulation. No minimum education requirements, no licensure, and not all trainers have the dog’s health and safety in the forefront of the training plan.
The main difference between the martingale and regular slip is the martingale has a stopper so it can only tighten so much. There are martingales that have the chain and ones that look like regular flat collars. If a dog is a strong puller, it can choke on either.
The thing about harnesses causing pulling is a myth (marketing strategy for aversive tools and methods). The force of the pull can be stronger on a harness, sure, but equipment alone won’t cause pulling. This is why if someone doesn’t use “well-timed corrections” a dog will pull on a prong or slip.
Leash corrections (pop, tap, bump, tug the leash; euphemisms for punishment) are usually recommended in conjunction with prongs or slips but not by this sub and most other dog related subs. They work on the basis that it’s very unpleasant-dog decreases pulling to avoid the correction. Leash corrections are less effective on harnesses (why harnesses are demonized by some trainers) but can still be unpleasant to the dog. My dog experienced behavioral fallout from corrections on a harness btw.
Something else to consider is function of pulling-to get to something or away? Is the dog just moving fast (humans are slow)? Is the behavior of pulling reinforced by the human moving forward with tension in the leash?
I get the equipment and training methods are confusing. Dog training has no regulation. No minimum education requirements, no licensure, and not all trainers have the dog’s health and safety in the forefront of the training plan.
@brothersnook I use one during dummy training because its easy to put on / off. And you dont want a lot of gear on your dog if you send them into woods / bushes, so you take of anything else.
But my dog is leash trained already. And the leash has a stop, so it will not choke her. To use a slip lead for me is not intimidating per se. It is if you use it that way.
But my dog is leash trained already. And the leash has a stop, so it will not choke her. To use a slip lead for me is not intimidating per se. It is if you use it that way.
savedtoservehim
New member
@brothersnook It depends on the type. I broke my back and now use one on walks as they’re easy to get on and off. Mine has a metal thing on it though to stop it over tightening. You also have make sure you put them on in P rather than Q orientation or they don’t auto-loosen
brothersnook
New member
@savedtoservehim Yes. I have the clasps that stop the slip before they get too tight.
savedtoservehim
New member
@brothersnook Then it’s only as harsh as your hands
@brothersnook I've never thought of a slip lead as a training lead, more for taking in and out of trial rings e.g. agility, FastCAT, barn hunt.
@brothersnook It looks like you are trying to stop pulling. Get a harness that has a front pull and train with that and cheese. My dog doesn't pull at all on the front - it's gotta be weird for them because they will get pulled down or pulled sideways if they pull too much, but it doesn't hurt them.
I use carabiner on a long lead now - kind of a goofy system I suppose but it works for us. I can do some off leash stuff and quickly clip her back with the handle on top of her harness. She will periodically pull though, especially when she is riding waves of excitement
I use carabiner on a long lead now - kind of a goofy system I suppose but it works for us. I can do some off leash stuff and quickly clip her back with the handle on top of her harness. She will periodically pull though, especially when she is riding waves of excitement
brothersnook
New member
soulsearcher57
New member
@brothersnook Technically yes of course they are. They're a noose just like a choke chain. Whether it's abusive depends entirely on how you use it.
Every dog gets to decide what's aversive. To one dog raising your voice is the end of the world. Another will shrug that off. Same with tools. Train the dog in front of you.
Every dog gets to decide what's aversive. To one dog raising your voice is the end of the world. Another will shrug that off. Same with tools. Train the dog in front of you.