If this was your puppy, what would you do to stop these behaviors from becoming bigger problems?

dinokid

New member
I have a 12 week old working line German Shepherd Dog puppy. I have a decent amount of experience with WL shepherds. I used to work at a schutzhund kennel and spent a lot of time handling and training them. My other dog is also a shepherd, although a bit easier to handle because he is a show-line x working-line cross.

Overall I’d say training and socialization is going well. From day 1 I’ve made a point to establish rules and boundaries. He is going to be a big, powerful dog and I’m trying to set him up for a lifetime of success by enforcing good manners and loose-leash walking skills from the beginning. He’s a fast learner and very handler-oriented so for the most part things have been going well. There are 2 behaviors he’s exhibited in the past week that concern me:

The first is that despite daily handling and grooming exposure, yesterday when I went to trim his nails he freaked out on me. He became very overstimulated and started biting me as hard as he could. I used to be a dog groomer and have handled many puppies and have never been bitten by a puppy as hard as he bit me. We are taking a step back and going to be reintroducing nail trims more slowly with a counter-conditoning protocol, but I’m worried this may turn into a bigger problem.

The second problematic behavior is that yesterday he also growled at another dog for the first time. Everyday I take him on a 5 minute outing to a store to expose him to different environments and people. For the most part he’s done beautifully and we’ve had no issues. Nothing has seemed to phase him, until now. He saw a medium-sized white terrier mix and growled at it when it came within 5 feet of him. I did not allow the dog to come any closer to him and ended the training session by letting him play with my other dog. As far as addressing this behavior goes, Im unsure of the best way to handle things. He has seen other dogs in close proximity before, usually while they pass us on hikes. This is the first time he’s growled at another dog before though, or anything for that matter.

I wouldn’t say he’s a very anxious puppy overall. Everyday I expose him to something new, whether it be the vacuum cleaner, an umbrella opening and closing, different surfaces to walk on such as grates, everything you’re supposed to get a puppy familiar with. He’s been confident other than these 2 incidents. So should I be worried? Should I be handling things differently? Am I on the right path? I really am afraid of ending up with a fearful, aggressive, or reactive 80+ lb dog. I want him to have a good life and if there’s something I can be doing differently now to set him up for success I’d appreciate guidance.

Thank you.
 
@dinokid Honestly I'd worry about a working line puppy that never protested or growled about anything.

Don't make these things a big deal. Puppy growls at a person or dog? Stand around and talk to the person for a bit, let the puppy realize there is nothing to worry about and growling doesn't push people around. Usually the puppy recovers within seconds or minutes and switches into curiosity. Puppy fights you during handling? Hold them until they are still, then let them take a break for a second. Break things down a little more and reward a little more frequently but continue on as usual.

If the puppy is panicking and can't recover, yes, you need a change of course. But the more common mistake is creating problems by overreacting...like puppy growls at a couple dogs, and the owners immediately rush the puppy away, or come down hard on the puppy with corrections, or whip out food and start doing a whole song and dance routine.

Keeping reinforcing good manners and engagement with you in general.
 
@dinokid Perhaps a fear period has hit?

As for nails, with my fluffball, all my progress on nail trims flew out the window between 3:4 months when he went through the first challenge boundaries phase. Had to start over nail trimming at 4 months. Brushing in general was a pain too at this phase.

Today at 22 months he’s a very well behaved dog that does well with both. (And has for a long time.) I still reward him with treats. He loves it, and I love it.

12 weeks imo is still quite young. You’ve raised puppies before right? You know the biting is nuts at this phase.
 
@dinokid What's your relationship with his breeder, and what do they say?

Which early protocols did the breeder use?

ETA if he's a detection candidate, 12 weeks seems way too young to be introducing brakes of any kind. My dog's breeder might be extreme on that front, but her guideline is management until ~12 months.

Your dog's breeder knows their lines and which practices yield successful mature dogs their kennel has produced, which is presumably why you bought from them.
 
@childofgod_2019 Tbh 12 mo sounds quite sensible, until that age not much seemed to stick to my wl boy in terms of anything other than fun. There were always rules and he ignored all of them, until one day he just seemingly woke up with new personality. Between 2 and 10 mo he was just a rabid velociraptor, with fear periods around 3-4 mo and 9-10 mo. Visible milestones were at 12 and 18 mo. After that it only got better.
 
@dinokid Does the daily handling and grooming exposure include touching the clippers to the nails or was yesterday when he freaked out the first actual trim? Does the daily handling include holding the paw whether or not he wants you to (restraint) or are you doing more cooperative care style training where you build up the paw grabs in slow increments? Did his biting you cause you to end the session? Did you stop him from biting you?

How do you deal with general puppy biting? Do you correct it or no?

Who knows why he growled at the terrier. I would not read too much into that. He might not have liked his size or something about his energy. As with any working puppy, I would be taking the “don’t worry about them, worry about me” approach. Capture disengagement from dogs, don’t allow him to think too hard about whether he approves of dogs, work obedience/engagement with handler, etc.

Based on what you’ve described, I wouldn’t be worried about creating a fearful dog at this point, I’d be worried about creating a confident biter. Nothing is set in stone as he’s quite young, but most puppies don’t attack hands hard like that.
 
@reebern I had trimmed his nails twice before without incident. But no, the daily handling and grooming exposure doesn’t involve me touching the clippers to his nails. I just play with his feet a lot, squeezing them, holding them, etc. going forward I am going to be approaching this using cooperative-care. I will trim one nail per day while feeding him a high-value treat like salmon. Overtime I will increase how many nails I trim per session, hopefully getting him to the point where he is comfortable having all of his nails trimmed in one go. Also considering pulling out my dremel and seeing if that goes better. For some dogs the dremel is easier, and I’d be fine with that as an alternative.

When he started biting hard I did not end the grooming session. Not sure if that was a mistake. I didn’t want him to think biting = thing I don’t like stops. Bad lesson to teach him I think. I just restrained his head and kept trimming his nails, but again not sure if that was the right thing to do and if I just increased his dislike of nail trimming.

In general when he bites me I firmly tell him “no” and try to redirect his attention to a toy or chew. If he keeps biting I leave his pen for a few minutes (he spends most of his day in a large puppy pen in my living room).

Thank you for the advice re: growling at the other dog. He has great handler engagement, so I think if I just keep reinforcing that and teaching him I’m the most valuable thing in any environment that will help us a lot.

Yeah, like I said I used to work as a professional dog groomer and I’ve never had a puppy bite that hard. Most puppies will mouth your hand or the clippers, but they aren’t using a lot of force when doing so. My puppy bit hard enough to draw blood, that’s a huge concern to me. If he was an adult dog biting like that I would have certainly needed stitches. I’ve seen so many poorly behaved GSDs who can’t be groomed or handles by other people without muzzles, sedatives, and full-body restraints, I don’t want that life for him. So trying to nip this in the bud now!
 
@dinokid Sorry I’m confused — you have a working line puppy and you’re wondering why it’s different from other puppies? The working line puppy bred to bite is… biting…? Nothing here sounds abnormal at all.
 
@analogue No need to be condescending. I’ve worked with hundreds of working line GSD puppies and raised 7 of my own and none of them have bitten in the way I’m describing. I’m aware that working line GSDs bite! That’s normal, yes. They do bite harder and with more intensity than other dog breeds, even as pups. I can still remember working with a certain pup who loved to come up behind me when I was cleaning the kennels, grab a hold of my ankle and clamp down while shaking his head. Hurt like hell but normal.

The way my puppy is biting is not something I have experienced before and does not feel normal to me. He is biting hard but it’s not in a playful way. It seems to be either out of fear or as a way to assert himself. Not acceptable behavior I will tolerate from a dog that will grow to be 80+lb and will be working in environments around strangers.
 
@dinokid I would strongly consider punishing him for biting you, rather than just removing your presence or distracting with a toy. When you say “no!” but then immediately give a toy, the dog can construe this as a reward. The verbal “no” doesn’t lead to something unpleasant, it leads to something pleasant (a toy).

Why do you own a working line GSD? Are you into bitesports? Do you have a trainer? What is the plan for this dog?

I like the cooperative care stuff for the most part, but i think there’s value in teaching a dog to accept restraint for certain procedures too. And no, you don’t get to bite at me just because I’m restraining you.
 
@reebern What do you think an appropriate punishment would be for a puppy of this age? Should I put a slip lead on him when I’m grooming him and use that to correct him when he bites, or do you think something else would be more effective? I’m certainly not against punishment + aversive collars, but have never been in a situation where I’ve considered using them on a puppy this young. Makes sense what you are saying about the toy rewarding him for biting though.

I bought him with the intent to train him as a pest detection dog. Could have gone with a beagle or lab and maybe I should have but WL GSDs are the dogs I’m most I’m familiar with so that’s what I picked. I’m not currently working with a trainer but if this biting behavior progresses I will definitely find one to work with.

I agree. I think cooperative care is a good foundation, especially for puppies but ultimately dogs need to learn to accept being handled and restrained even for unpleasant and uncomfortable grooming and veterinary procedures. My other GSD is fantastic for grooming, I can do whatever I want to him. Really hoping I can get this puppy to that level with some focused effort.
 
@dinokid For grooming I’d try avoiding being bitten to begin with. Cooperative care for grooming is imo the best way. I machine gunned treats into mine’s mouth to avoid being bitten. 3-4 months being what it is and all. It’s a phase, he’ll get over it. Just make grooming as nice as possible for now imo.
 
@dinokid The way that I punish puppies for biting is grabbing their muzzle and holding it closed for five seconds. That or I will shove my hand down their mouth a little and make them release. Essentially I don’t want my hand to resemble prey, so I’m not gonna take my hand away and I’m definitely not gonna sit there and get bit either. So that leaves me with one option - make it an unpleasant experience to bite mom. Repeat x infinity until they’re done. They hate it and quickly stop doing the behavior that causes me to grab their muzzle. I think either my cattle dog he was done biting in about 1.5 days.

It’s important to note that correcting the puppy is about 0.05% of my overall interaction with the puppy. Most of the time out of the kennel is reinforcing four on the floor, obedience, playing with other dogs, toy play/drive building, off leash exploration, etc.

There really is a WHOLE HELLUVA LOT TO DO other than bite mom, and they catch onto this really really quickly.
 
@reebern What about learning bite inhibition? I endured a lot of biting with mine, and did mostly reverse timeouts. He got better at 4 months and fully stopped at 1 year (which was when I felt safe to wear nice clothes again). I can’t get him to bite me if I try, and before he fully quit he was very careful with his teeth.

I’ve accidentally hurt him while grooming a few times (tugging too hard in a sensitive spot), and he’s screamed so I jumped, but not even a hint of trying to bite me. And hopefully if he did, it’d be inhibited.
 
@reebern No, and I always walked away when it was too painful. But bite inhibition was important to me. If I somehow got him to stop biting at 4 months, he’d destroy me if he ever bit me due to pain when adult.

So in essence, it was better for me in the long run. He never puts teeth on me now at 22 months. Even when I try to roughhouse.
 
@reebern There’s a difference between positive and negative punishment. My goal wasn’t for him to not bite me either. Just to be more and more careful until he no longer did it anymore. I didn’t necessarily even need him to completely stop. He just has.
 
@dinokid GSD's can have wild, weird fear periods. 12 weeks is a little early for that, but again, they are one of the more dramatic breeds out there.

I'd back off of taking him here, there and everywhere if things are freaking him out, and do things that you are sure he can handle, for now.
 

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