I’m Scared I’ve Ruined My Dog For Life

[trustgodalways]

Talk me off a ledge here, people.

I have a 1.5yo spayed female boxer and we’ve had her since she was 8 weeks old. We got her during the you-know-what so for almost the first year of her life, she only really interacted with me and my fiancé, and I worked from home so she was with me 24/7.

Now she is so uneasy about strangers and it manifests as aggressive behavior. She will bark and lunge at strangers to the point of foaming at the mouth, nearly choking herself out.

If I hand off the leash and leave at the vet or groomer, she’s fine with them. If I’m in the same room, she’s uncontrollable. Shes never bitten anyone but has gotten close 3 times.

We’ve worked with 2 balanced trainers, have tried private and group classes, but nothing had helped.

We try mostly positive-only techniques and don’t use an e-collar on her (because I’m pretty sure that would only heighten her anxiety) but I’m at my wits end. I love her to death but I want to be able to let other people watch her or have her meet new people, but we can’t trust her and her focus can’t be redirected once she sees a stranger.

Please, advice and reassurance are welcome. I’m just disheartened at the idea that my dog is unfriendly. It’s my biggest fear and the ONE thing I swore to avoid, yet it’s exactly what’s happened.

ETA: I appreciate all the comments and advice! Thank you all for the detailed suggestions; my girl is my world so I want her to be as happy and well-adjusted as possible.

 

[listentaylor]

@trustgodalways So here’s what I’ve done over the last 4 years with my stranger danger dog, whom I got at a year old.

Initially, she’s basically feral. Decided I might be ok since I showed up with food on the regular, but very skittish. All other people were growled at, even from 100 meters away.

First few months: had one or two people over at a time. She was crated and completely ignored by me and my guests. At first there was lots of growling and snarling, and I would sit on the floor in front of her crate (between her and the strangers) with my back to her. Older dog loved people and got plenty of attention and treats where she could see. On leash, I asked people not to pet her or interact with her, and tucked her behind me while they gave my older dog attention.

Months 3-6 or so: initial growling from crate when people come over starts to turn to whining. On leash she’s starting to sniff in strangers’ general direction but won’t approach. A few people she’s seen often start to toss treats to her from a distance. By 6 months, she’s up to approximately 4 people she’ll interact with on her terms. Growling at others has reduced substantially.

Months 6-12: we start taking private agility lessons. This helps build her confidence. She’s definitely getting braver and is starting to seek out people she knows and ask for attention, but sudden moves still make her scoot away. She’s getting good at ignoring most people until they get really close, but kids at playground, people doing anything other than walking, nope.

Second year: we’re into low double digits of people she actually likes. She’s still skittish and will scoot with sudden moves or unexpected noises (laughter), but she comes back quickly. Toward the end of the this year, we start making regular trips to stores that allow dogs during quiet times (Tuesday evenings). She starts choosing to approach strangers, whom I’ll either ask to ignore her or I’ll hand treats for them to scatter on the ground for her.

Third year: more of the same. Aiming for lots of good or neutral experiences with people. We take trips to pet stores at busier times. We do hikes at one park that has a playground and watch kids from a distance after a long hike. We start doing things like watching bikers and skateboarders on the greenway and getting treats.

It’s almost four years now and she’s almost normal. She’ll always be a bit shy, and new places with strangers are still a challenge (first few group nosework classes were tough), but I can walk her through crowds downtown on a Friday night or take her to a quieter restaurant patio for dinner.

Figure out how far away she needs to be to notice strangers but not get too anxious. Recruit friends to come over and baby gate her in an adjacent room (so she can come to the gate and watch and listen but can also retreat), and ignore her. Don’t talk to her, don’t look at her. She’s a bit of noisy moving furniture.

Always keep yourself between her and strangers (or anything else she’s worried about). Keep your voice light and soft and smile when you speak to her (it’s harder to be anxious/frustrated when you’re smiling, or laughing). I laugh when my dog gets scared, not because it’s funny, but because sensitive dogs like her notice that I’m happy and relaxed (or not!) and if I’m laughing, then whatever just scared her probably wasn’t actually that scary.

It takes time. A pro likely would have gotten my dog comfortable a lot sooner, but I did the best I could with the knowledge I had. If you can get her around another goofy doofus-type dog who loves people and won’t be put off by her antics, see if that helps (it did seem to help mine). Don’t underestimate the power of neutral experiences. Having a stranger ignore her is just as valuable as having one throw her favorite treats.

Oh. Teach her to wear a basket muzzle too.

 

[ashamedguy]

@listentaylor Second the basket muzzle comment. It looks a lot worse than is it, but you definitely don’t want to be on the hook for any medical bills (and possibly having to euthanize her) if that ‘coming close to biting’ actually turns into actually biting.

It’ll keep you, her, and everyone else a lot more safe while you work with her.

 

[servant1021]

@listentaylor Thank you so much for describing all of this. I am at the 1.5 year mark with my dog and this gives me a lot of perspective. When I got to "I can walk her through crowds downtown on a Friday night" I was like whoa, can that possibly be in my future? Anyways, thanks for the detail and the timeline.

 

[hms]

@listentaylor This is amazing and very well done!

 

[iluvjesu]

@trustgodalways Find a trainer that deals with aggressive dogs; obviously find a highly rated one. Be open to trying other methods. I've seen malinois go from aggressive to friendly with the right guidance and training.

 

[lasaruse]

@iluvjesu But beware of trainers who use pain or intimidation to suppress behaviors. When I see dogs trained by "balanced" trainers, too often the dog is doing what they're told while hiding their emotions. When you see quick results, go back in a year and see how the dog is doing then? Quick results can lead to equally quick backslides.Dogs can stuff their emotions for a while but then they might surprise you when they show you how they really feel! Learning takes time! Training the dog to wear a soft basket muzzle reduces your risks and liability and can speed things up because you don't need to be quite so cautious.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@trustgodalways Sounds like the dog is guarding you, which is quite common these days with Covid and working from home.

In the end, you’re going to have to understand that it will have to be communicated to her that acting aggressively towards other people in your presence is no longer acceptable.

And positive reinforcement is simply not going to get you there by itself. Likely, only giving the dog treats without some of your own clarity as to when the appropriate timing and marking of good behaviors is making the issue worse. Positive reinforcement is in no way benign, as others here will have you believe.

As others have suggested, find a trainer who can help you learn how to effectively used aversives and compulsion to communicate with the dog effectively.

Also don’t allow your dog to interact with other people or dogs until you get it under some control. No exceptions. Your just asking for increased liability and a bad outcome.

I would also muzzle train the dog. Boxers can bite pretty nicely.

Once you get some obedience in her, I would look into some kind of sport work to channel her aggression appropriately.

 

[lasaruse]

@imagebeastmarkbeast I find aversives are dangerous because dogs learn to hide what they really feel. Aversives can create an illusion of quick results but eventually you might forget that the behavior is only suppressed, and it pops back up when you least expect it! When you train your dog to trust you, you are much less likely to experience aggression. Sure it can be hard to get timing right with reinforcement, but it is twice as confusing to dogs when you get your timing wrong with punishment. You can create a problem twice as bad as the problem you were trying to fix. The American Academy of Veterinary Behaviorists has come out with a position statement that aversives should NEVER be used in animal training. The results are less effective and create more problems that reinforcement based training.

 

[leathamoll]

@lasaruse This is the OPEN dog training page. I think everyone here is well aware of the statement, but tool shaming has no place in this sub when used appropriately and with the guidance of a qualified trainer.

 

[lasaruse]

@leathamoll Does open mean not open to research about the consequences of using any dog training tools? By open, you mean, censor information? Here's a helpful paper, using distance as negative reinforcement. https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.979.6350&rep=rep1&type=pdf

 

[leathamoll]

@lasaruse You are blatantly shaming anyone who mentions using tools. And since this is OPEN dog training, this is not the place for your negativity. If you aren’t actually here to give suggestions to the questions that OP asked, please just get out of here. It’s not the place. No one asked for your trolling.

 

[lasaruse]

@leathamoll Seems like you're being defensive and easily shamed. I'm only sharing research and facts.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@lasaruse I have not had these experiences. And these behaviorist would rather get lazy dog owners to sedate their dogs with meds when positive training by itself dosnt “seem” to work, even after literal years - as some people in this very thread have admitted.

In fact, someone is talking about having to train their dog to not be reactive for 4 years….what? 4 years is literally outrageous, and this poster still says their dog is “not completely normal.”

I ain’t got time for that, and either do many people I know and interact with.

With that said, people are always open to doing what they feel is correct.

Im not the one asking for advice about problems I don’t have.

 

[listentaylor]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Any fool can leash pop or shock a fearful dog into submission — it doesn’t take much skill to use aversives to become scarier and cause the dog more immediate physical pain or psychological discomfort than whatever the dog was initially worried about.

I’m sorry you “ain’t got time” to be empathetic and kind to your fearful dog.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@listentaylor Yea we just beat our dogs into submission! Your correct! Good one!

Keep doing what you’re doing for another few years! You’re on track to succeed! Keep going! Good job!

 

[lasaruse]

@imagebeastmarkbeast We need more research but current research shows reinforcement training yields more lasting more desirable results.

 

[ericm]

@lasaruse It really doesn't.

People only repeat that without actual showing strong data.

 

[lasaruse]

@ericm Here's a review of a bunch of studies. https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Aversive_Training_Methods_in_Dogs_-_A_Review

 

[ericm]

@lasaruse I tried to open, but this is only the abstract. And in the abstract the author point out a lot of problems in the methods of the studies.

I know the literature on the subject. It is usually pseudo science. My impression is that it's made by people who are only trying to publish a quick article.

Did you actually read any of them?

Could you point me out to the best study? As for now i only read wishfully thinking.