*VENT* Just because I use a prong with my dog doesn’t mean I think Every dog needs it or that I’m a bad or lazy dog parent

[aegistoronto]

I use a prong and ecollar for my dog. She’s a 1.5 year old mal. She’s very fast and strong and weighs over 60 lbs, has a high drive, heLLa independent and kinda feisty and v nippy (as Mals are) and waS prone to running into the street after critters before I started working with a trainer on using the prong and ecollar. I’ve gotten a Lot of judgement for using the ecollar.. like. A Lot. People in the street will look at her then look at me (esp when we’re doing a muzzle training walk) and give me the dirtiest looks (and I’m like…uh y’all realize this is just as much for your safety and her safety as it is for mine?) she’s a lot easier to manage now. A lot easier to correct now. I don’t even need to correct her most of the time at this point. The thing is ig people don’t realize that some dogs are wayyy too intelligent and people simply aren’t equipped with the means to communicate efficiently enough yk? I’d rather use an ecollar and have my dog learn to understand me than suffer in the constant stress that she’s gonna chase after something while we’re on our walk or accidentally nip at me when excited yk? I’m just!!! Just yesterday I had these college kids essentially degrade me for using an ecollar and muzzle while they walked their golden and they basically said if she was having so many issues I shouldn’t be walking her in such stimulating places but like. We don’t even need/use a muzzle most of the time!!! I just don’t want her to be out of practice!!! I’m so tired of randos making assumptions about me and my dog!!! Just because I use these tools doesn’t mean I think you should be using them too!!!! If your dog is fine and dandy wo them that’s awesome for u!!! But pls don’t look down at me or my dog for using these tools I’m only human and I already feel like a shitty dog parent 80% of the time jfc like why are people hellbent on assuming the worst…like I’m doing this so she can have a good quality of life without constantly getting into dangerous situations. Like maybe your dog isn’t prone to chasing deer, but mine iS and I’d rather not have that happen yk? Idk I’m just so tired and fed up

 

[sviar]

@aegistoronto I often find that people who have some criticism either have untrained dogs, have lower expectations, or have dogs with such low temperament that they never had to deal with dogs bolting across streets to kill a squirrel.

While training, it sucked having the odd eye. After training I just laugh, throw the ball, call a down mid chase and tell them my dogs have more freedom than theirs.

 

[treks]

@aegistoronto You sound like a responsible dog owner and there’s nothing wrong with using those tools responsibly. Most dog owners don’t have the knowledge or education to understand, which is ignorance on their part, not yours! Keep doing what you’re doing.

 

[patrickthian]

@treks I always look like a monster to "normies" cause we wear a muzzle. It's working, people are dumb, they see a muzzle, they think bad dog, they don't come near.

 

[thanhcongk83]

@patrickthian Most people should have muzzles too. Want one?

Say that next time. Lol

 

[patrickthian]

@thanhcongk83 Ball gag/muzzle for yappy humans who approach other dog trainers and try and bug us about the way we wanna train our dogs when they either have an uncontrolled dog or no dog.

 

[aegistoronto]

@treks Thank you!

 

[sayalittleprayer]

@aegistoronto Yeah, the “No tools” movement has really been fed to a lot of people, to great success. And they are right in some aspects, a lot of dogs do not need any sort of ecollar, prong, chain collar, or frequently muzzled. Our breeding practices over the last 200 years have gone to ensure this.

But this hasn’t boded well for dogs that haven’t been bred in this way.

 

[brilliant]

@sayalittleprayer Yeah - I feel like you have to overstate some things to make an impact at scale, and then it gets taken too far or people loose faith because the simple statement is right most of the time but there are exceptions.

Dog temperament is probably distributed somewhat normally and on a bell curve. From my experience as a first time dog owner, if your dog falls within one standard deviation, where most will, and you only want your dog to be a good pet, which is the majority of folks, R+ is the way to go.

I haven’t introduced formal corrections to my one year old dog, but having spent a really serious amount of money and time to learn to read dog body language from working with skilled, credentialed, and experienced trainers, in significant numbers of 1:1 training, I really think getting the timing right with a correction is an advanced handler skill. The average person isn’t going to, and may not be interested in, building up to those skills. With poor skills I think you could make a dog a wreck with misplaced and mistimed corrections.

So for most dogs and most owners, R+ is best because the timing is less important, and you will get the results you want while building a good bond with your pet.

But what do you do when a dog has difficult to manage reactivity? Yes, I believe you can train it with R+ but it will be time consuming (like many months/years), expensive to learn advanced skills you need, and difficult to find trainers who actually have the skills to do R+ reactivity. I feel so lucky and fortunate to have gotten this dog at a point in my life where I have both access to resources and time to deal with it, but what if I didn’t?

Is it really worse to learn to use an e or prong properly then to rehome? I think my dog would become so fearful in a shelter she would bite. If I needed to use a prong to help her in certain situations, I think that is more humane then putting her in a situation where there is as a good a chance she would get euthanized as end up in the right place.

Anyway - long comment - I have been thinking through introducing corrections to my dog.

 

[jesuslover20021234]

@brilliant Yeah I trained my leash reactive (frustrated greeter really) dog with R+ only for 1 year since she was a puppy. It was making her and me even more frustrated... we made progress but it just wasn't helping our relationship or her mindset. I started thinking about new ways to train her, and I also did a DNA test and found out she was 50% GSD, 40% Cattle Dog, 10% Border Collie. I started looking for trainers that specialized in those breeds since they are so smart and can learn well. That's where I found balanced training, and it has changed our life. I went from crying daily after walking her, to her and I understanding each other sooo much better. I never thought I would end up using a prong collar but we can now go for 2 hours of walking around a busy downtown and she doesn't have a care in the world, and she happily takes the treats (whereas before she was too stressed to eat on walks).

I definitely think people look at me when they see the prong collar on her, but then I call her into a heel and she keeps her eyes up at me and I don't care what they say, because my dog is happy and acting well in public.

I did private training when we started getting into other forms of training and tools, having a trainer help me with my form and timing and what not was amazing. They really helped me with my confidence which trickles down to the dog.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@aegistoronto The only way to feel better about this is to ignore those people. You do what you do for the good of your dog then that’s all that matters.

 

[rrep]

@aegistoronto Actually, prong + e-collar is very common for mals and dutchies.

Dude, just put some bandana around her neck and call it a day.

People are very ignorant, sadly.

If they complaing about the muzzle, just remove it. In front of them. Most will run away too quick to keep saying bs.

 

[aegistoronto]

@rrep never thought abt removing the muzzle haha, scare tactics for the win lolll

 

[rrep]

@aegistoronto Of course! Extra points if you trained your dog to bark under command!

More extra points if the command is "friend"!!!

Just imagine the situation: stupid people start saying bs about your muzzle. Then you remove the muzzle and say "calm down boy, it's just a FRIEND"!!!

LMAO

 

[mommajulesberry]

@aegistoronto I felt the same when I first started using mine but my dog is so much a happier now. She can go on long walks and we aren't even using the prong most walks. Also just as a side note about these ig posts about prongs. I saw comments on some that said it's better to have the dog put down then use an e collar since the dog will be living in constant fear of the e collar and their life. It was the most liked comment on the post lol. Yes I should kill my dog instead of using a prong to correct her.

 

[drystyx]

@aegistoronto I predict that public shaming will make people use ways to make the tools more discreet. There are prong collar covers made of nylon and the e-collar finger trainer with a small ring/button accessory. The big obvious yellow remote can go on a discreet belt or under a coat, in a holster.

For muzzles, I was interested in the concept of those comedic yellow duck bill muzzles or the smiley face muzzle. It seemed like an interesting concept, softening the look and perhaps breaking out of people's paradigm.

 

[duvved]

@aegistoronto As a trainer that uses tools on my own personal dogs to include my service dog, I have been frustrated myself with those who only see certain tools as harsh and mean. I have a lab as a service dog and from time to time I still use a Prong collar on him if we are going into a situation or place we haven't encountered before. I have only had to make one very mild correction but I would rather have had the collar on and only a mild correction than not and had a worse situation. I am now training a 6 1/2 month old Mal and she has just started with a Prong collar. It has made a huge difference in how I am able to walk her. She is still a puppy, but we all know Mals can be difficult if not trained or not trained properly.

I have clients that say they are completely apposed to them until they see how their dog behave after. Just remember if you are using the tools correctly and responsibly who cares what people think!?

 

[otu12345]

@aegistoronto I just listened to a great podcast that I think everyone should listen to. It’s A World Without Tools by the canine paradigm (Hosted by Glenn Cook and Pat Stuart). I think it is a great discussion on the use and non use of tools. When discussing tools they are referring to tools that are aversive (prongs, e collars, choke chain, head halti, etc.). I can’t even begin to describe it and do it justice but I am currently trying to figure out how to word a post telling the forlorn in the dogtraining sub to listen to it without being rude/ getting my post deleted because I think a lot of them would benefit from it just as a lot of us balanced folks would as well.

 

[jamesapado]

@otu12345 I just got shadow banned from /r/dogtraining. So yea, good luck with that!

Those people think they understand "science", but it's all ideology over there. Science is about questioning things and finding the truth, but on r/dogtraining you have to take the AVSAB statement as if it were holy scripture.

They are pretty condescending too. The mere fact that "scientiffic" dog training is excising "dominance" from their vocab just because they don't like trainers like Ceasar really blows my mind. It's a decent concept that applies well to certain situations

 

[otu12345]

@jamesapado And that’s why I have yet to post anything. I was more just thinking that a few people would see it and actually listen to the podcast and even if they didn’t change their thoughts towards training maybe they would have a better understanding of all trainers in general.

I have a hard time reading the suggestions in that subreddit, but I constantly have to remind myself just like a few trainers don’t represent all of balanced trainers, a few trainers don’t represent all of the +R crowd. Many of us are more similar in training styles and beliefs than we realize.