Trainer wants to use prong/e-collar on my dog

[catherinenosleep]

Hi everyone! I’ve never posted here before (or anywhere on Reddit) but I was hoping for some advice.

My 2 year old GSD/pyr/husky mix has some leash reactivity towards dogs and children. She goes to daycare 3 times a week and does great there, but isn’t a fan of children or dogs while she’s on a leash. She has always been this way, and we are more rural at the moment so it has been difficult to expose her to certain situations but my husband is active duty military so we will be moving sometime in the next couple years so we want to get head of any reactivity issues now.

I reached out to a trainer and we had a 40 minute call yesterday where she told me that my dog was “terrified” of dogs and children, that I was on the “wrong side” of things and her reactivity would only get worse, and that I needed to start using “corrections” including a prong collar or an e-collar.

The call started out with her asking me what I currently do with my dog when she shows reactivity, and I explained how I try to get her attention with treats and then reward her when she looks at me and away from whatever distracted her (usually a dog/person). She interrupts me and says “so you reward her for being aggressive” and I tried to explain how these were the methods that I was taught when we attended 3 months of positive reinforcement training when our dog was a puppy, but she was having none of it and said that those classes were probably not led by a certified behaviorist and I shouldn’t be using treat-training past 4 months of age because they were just bribes. She told me my dog doesn’t see me as the “alpha”. She essentially told me I didn’t know what I was doing, and wants me to drop off my dog for 2 weeks to do an $1800 course where they use an e-collar or prong collar on her.

We have thus far only used positive reinforcement because that is what we have been taught, so now I’m wondering what everyone else’s thoughts were on this because I’m seeing a lot of conflicting information online. I absolutely do not plan on using this trainer. I ended up in tears yesterday after the call because she made me feel like I was a terrible dog owner. The thought of dropping off my dog so they can use these methods on her makes me feel horrible and I can’t bring myself to do it.

Does anyone have any advice or insight on trainers and if this is a normal suggestion they make? Should I try to find another trainer? I’ve been hesitant to use treats now because of what the trainer told me and now I’m not sure what to do. I’d like to continue positive reinforcement but I don’t want to “reward aggression” as the trainer put it.

Sorry for any formatting issues, this is my first ever post! Thank you in advance

 

[fineandfaith]

@catherinenosleep Find another trainer. This sub has a Wiki on how to find a qualified trainer, but whoever you spoke to has outdated information and is misinformed. You may be able to work with someone remotely if you don’t have anyone in your area.

Do not feel bad about using treats. You are not rewarding aggressive behavior, you are trying to counter-condition her emotional response to triggers. For now keep your distance from dogs and kids and feed anytime she perceives a dog or kid. Don’t worry about what she’s doing, just feed her. You’ll notice that soon she’ll see another dog and look at you for treats. That’s when you can start to shape her behavior into something more desirable.

 

[catherinenosleep]

@fineandfaith Thank you so much for the insight! I’ll take a look at the wiki and try to find a trainer with beliefs that align more closely to mine. Your comment has made me feel a lot better and more confident continuing on the positive reinforcement path we’ve been on

 

[txlove]

@catherinenosleep A trainer who actually believes in science and animal behavior would be nice. It's not about your beliefs, we know what works and that punitive punishment will make things worse. I work in a Neuro behavior lab and the disconnect between "dog trainers" and anyone actually knowledgeable on the topic of animal behavior is vast. And often sad when they start shocking dogs that are already struggling

 

[catherinenosleep]

@txlove Absolutely! There’s a lot of conflicting information online and even between trainers it seems as well. We’re doing our best to figure out the good information/advice from the bad. I appreciate your insight as an expert in the field! It helps to know that there are different levels of understanding dog behavior among trainers

 

[txlove]

@catherinenosleep Conflicting... It depends on your sources. When you read behavior journals or experts it's quite clear and not conflicting at all. When you read random dog trainer Facebook posts or blogs you just get a lot of unsubstantiated crap. There's no training or regulation for dog trainers so anyone who thinks they're "good with dogs" becomes an "expert".

 

[teey]

@txlove This. OP, the “alpha” approach has been debunked and is outdated. The thing about science and research is that we’re always updating our understanding of our world, and when you learn something new that means something you previously understood isn’t correct or factual, you have to update your knowledge and replace it with what you learned. Actual scientists around the world have been studying canine behavior for years, and building a body of research that supports positive reinforcement as the best way to train a dog, and it’s the accepted standard.

People who claim there’s no science to back up the positive reinforcement approach are being lazy and dishonest, and frankly, I’ve noticed that an awful lot of them seem to make a lot of money off promising quick results, which aversive techniques certainly do, but at the risk of damaging your dog. Positive reinforcement will take longer, but it also lasts longer.

With aversive techniques, you’re just punishing your dog for doing stuff you don’t like and they’d still don’t know what you want them to do, whereas with positive reinforcement, you’re teaching them what you DO want. Dogs want to please us, and they do better when they know exactly what’s expected of them and how to do it. Think about when you were a kid - you did better in school when you had teachers that showed you how to do things and rewarded you, right? It’s the same with dogs.

 

[catherinenosleep]

@txlove Oh wow, I didn’t know that about dog trainers - I figured there must be some sort of training involved for them to become a dog trainer. The one I spoke to said she was “certified in reactivity” but I’m not sure who certified her or what that certification entails or if she is even certified at all.

We’re new to all of this so we will definitely try to find some more reputable sources of information online. I’m going to be looking into some of the resources that others posted about here, but if you recommend any sources in particular I would love to have them!

 

[txlove]

@catherinenosleep I don't know any "reactivity" certification but I'm sure someone is willing to sell one. Going through a reputable group like the Pet Professionals Guild is a good start but it can be difficult to evaluate them as well if you don't know what to look for.

 

[kidwindy001]

@catherinenosleep Hi! We initially worked with a trainer who used those methods and said we needed to be the alpha and I regret it 100%. I wish I never would’ve agreed to it knowing what I know now but I had no idea at the time how detrimental it could be. My dog is a rescue and her reactivity is caused by anxiety and PTSD from whatever happened in the first few years of her life. At first, the balanced training/alpha mentality methods seemed to help but all it really was doing was suppressing her anxiety. So while on the surface she wasn’t reacting and it seemed like she was “cured”, the anxiety was actually building up under the surface and then she kinda reach a breaking point where it started to make her anxiety even worse, which in turn made her reactions much worse. I was confused at first why that was happening but after some research, it all started to make sense. I was essentially punishing her for being anxious which did nothing but make her even more anxious. It’s been almost a year since we switched to complete positive reinforcement and I still feel so guilty for having put my dog through that

 

[catherinenosleep]

@kidwindy001 I’m so sorry you went through that! That was my worry with this type of program too - we believe in positive reinforcement but it’s so difficult when there’s someone with a certification telling you that you need to do something to help your dog. Because if someone’s telling you it’ll help, of course you want what’s best for your dog. That’s why I was so conflicted after I talked to the trainer, even though I knew it seemed wrong it made me question myself because she is supposed to know what she’s doing.

I appreciate your comment so much, I felt defeated after I talked with the trainer and you’re all giving me so much more confidence to continue with positive reinforcement and to find a better trainer

 

[kidwindy001]

@catherinenosleep Yes, exactly! We had a consultation and the trainer basically said he could fix her no problem and seemed so confident about it that I didn’t really think anything of it. I’m so happy you’re continuing with positive reinforcement and wish you the best of luck finding a trainer!

 

[jonowebb]

@catherinenosleep I know it’s already been explained to you but just want to stress that “a certification” doesn’t mean shit sometimes. Like how anyone can call themselves a coach in whatever.
What’s more important is that you feel you’re in good hands, values align with yours and references.
It’s a good idea with the next trainer you interview (because that’s what it is, you’re interviewing them to see if their services can be a good fit!) to request some testimonials or look them up or both.

You’re doing the right thing already by questioning this trainer and doing your research.

 

[catherinenosleep]

@jonowebb Thank you! I hadn’t thought of it as an interview, but that’s a good way to view it. The trainer I spoke to definitely led the conversation and continually interrupted me and told me I was wrong. I’ll definitely take all this info into the next time I talk to a trainer to see whether I believe they would be helpful to my dog long term, or if they’re just trying to cure the symptoms of the reactivity for a quick fix.

 

[jonowebb]

@catherinenosleep Yes it’s one thing for a trainers style not to fit yours but being rude to a potential client is a major red flag even if the style aligned.

You have to click anyway. I replied to one of your other comments with a story about a spider that a great great trainer explained to me. I paid for a 1 hour session and his way of education me on reactivity was great and it finally made sense to me. But I still decided not to work with him beyond that. One, he wanted my dog to wear a martingale collar and though those are not aversive perse my dog was incredibly sensitive to harnesses collars and any sort of apparel and it took me long enough to find a harness she was slightly comfortable in. For months she barely walked because the sensation of harness/leash was making her freeze.
The martingale collar was non negotiable for him due to flight risk worries but it wasn’t going to work for me for reasons above.
2 a few other minor things nothing big like above but combined with reason nr 1 enough.

 

[bushido8000]

@catherinenosleep OMG that trainer is a moron. Sorry, not gonna mince words here. Good for you for recognizing that you should not use her.

The whole "alpha" theory of dog training has long since been debunked. You are NOT rewarding aggression, you are rewarding the calm behavior when your dog chooses to not focus on the trigger. I could go on and on.

The one thing she's right about is that your dog is almost certainly reacting out of fear. But think about what she's saying - she's gonna zap a dog with an e-collar when it reacts to something it fears. So dog sees trigger, dog reacts, dog experiences pain/discomfort from e-collar. All that is going to do is instill an even greater negative association with the trigger. It may - temporarily - suppress the reactive behavior bc the dog will be afraid of being zapped, but as it's fear of the trigger increases (because that trigger means pain/discomfort), eventually the dog will break out of fear compliance because the fear of the trigger will be greater than that of the e-collar. Then you have a REALLY reactive dog on your hands. Her methods do nothing to address the underlying issues.

Sorry, I'm a little fired up right now because I get super frustrated with antiquated trainers spouting off these kinds of things.

You are doing the right thing. Please continue to reward your dog for desirable behaviors and reinforce those good choices. Please, please disregard that BS that the trainer fed you. Find yourself a good force-free/R+ trainer who can help with reactivity - there some helpful info in the sub's wiki on finding a trainer.

Also, you may find this position statement to be a helpful read regarding training methodologies.

(edited for typo)

 

[catherinenosleep]

@bushido8000 Thank you so much! I definitely agree my dog is reacting out of fear, because she usually freezes up and then barks to try to get rid of the trigger when she sees a dog or a child.

I asked the trainer if the collar would create more fear and she told me no and that the prong collar mimics a dog correcting her, so I asked why that would be helpful if my dog is afraid of other dogs? And she gave a strange metaphor about how humans getting speeding tickets get them to stop speeding, the same way the collar would get my dog to not react to her triggers? I didn’t really understand what she was going for with that - a lot of what she was saying didn’t make sense and went so far against what my husband and I believe. I’m so relieved that there are people here agreeing that we are doing the right thing by not using this trainer. I’m going to look for a better trainer tonight with the resources everyone is posting thank you again for your insight!!

 

[xypher101]

@catherinenosleep That’s a strange metaphor anyways. Speeding tickets don’t lower the amount of people speeding interesting article here . If I’m punished for something I really want to do (like speed to get to work or bark at that dog across the street) I’m going to find a way to do. I’ll probably just be sneakier or more unexpected next time.

 

[noideawhatiamdoing]

@catherinenosleep Oh my god lol this trainer is a clown people justify using aversives with all sorts of silly excuses. Sounds like you got the rundown. It’s a way to make simple punishment/behavior suppression sound nicer or more relatable. They hide it in pseudoscience like that prong collars are similar to corrections from other dogs.

 

[catherinenosleep]

@noideawhatiamdoing She kept saying the e-collar would give a “feeling” or “sensation” instead of shock, so she was definitely trying to make everything seem nicer. She was also extremely defensive throughout the phone call. At one point I asked a question and she told me in a nice way that I didn’t know anything about training, to which I replied that I’m reaching out to her - a trainer - to get information and help…