Enough is enough

[jackih]

I'm tired of the reels, tiptoes, insta whatevers, of the "do this, don't do that" making me feel like somehow I'm supposed to perfectly speak and know dog and we're a failure if we don't.

The judgy advice from other people, the never had a dog BUT MY DOG WOULD NEVER. The folks who ship the dog off to board and trains every few months (can you tell I'm venting a specific person here) and then act like they've done all the work. Even the folks who have those perfect well trained non reactive dogs, the dog trainers, or those I got lucky and my dog just does everything perfect all the time.

Well you know what, mine doesn't. She will never be more interested in me than sniffing out every single scent, even if she waits at the door perfectly. She can't loose leash walk to save our lives, but has a perfect recall and chooses me everytime. Her bootleg orbit trick is hilarious, but her heel is kinda wonky.

No, I won't deny her her sniffs and yes, we walk with a ten foot leash, and I don't care that yours hasn't taken its eyes off you. And I don't care that she's not a fan of people in her space. I just don't. I don't want them near us either, so I guess like person like dog. And I don't care if she barks at every rabbit, leaf, or person near our home. Thanks for letting me know doggo.

Oh and no offense there pal, but if I'm walking her and we're pulled off a half mile off the road so you can pass us by, and you see I clearly am trying to desensitize her, nows not the time to walk directly towards us. Perhaps use the 75 feet of space I gave to you.

And this one's directly to you Ms. I'm a dog trainer and my dogs are so fabulous and here's all my videos and sign up for my classes. I know your secret. I know you shock the shit out of the aggressive dog with a 4 bite history because
"ITs NoT the DoG iTs the OwNeR"
Thats all. I needed to get that out.

 

[kimrossie]

@jackih I do honestly feel like it's impossible to have a judgement free life and so I just nod my head at the trainers now.

My dog has worked with a few trainers, it's almost impossible to find a non "balanced" trainer here in LA so I just listen to what advice of theirs I find helpful and ignore the rest. No, I won't use that leash or aversive tool, no I won't ever need her to be in a perfect heel. Sorry, that's not my dog.

I've found a day program I like with one trainer where all the dogs do is go on pack walks and sit on cots--no rough stuff--, so she goes twice a week, the rest of the time she works with me.

I did finally find a another trainer-- positive only -- and the FIRST thing she did was judge me for using the other types of trainers. But always peppering in with "no judgement but." And I just nodded and forged through, taking the advice I knew was helpful and would work for my dog.

YOU know your dog best. You know what works best for them. Even the best trainers, while they can help and give suggestions, don't know your dog as well as you do. It's ok to be a magpie and pick and choose from all of the reels, videos, books, etc and find the combination of things that are LIMA and work for the both of you. Your dog is your teammate!

I do have one social media recommendation, TrickWoofs, which are these sweet little judgement free cartoons about owning a dog. They always gives me a lift when I'm feeling down.

 

[karenmonique]

@kimrossie What is a non “balanced” trainer?

 

[citfield]

@karenmonique I think she meant finding a trainer that isn't "balanced".

 

[karenmonique]

@citfield And what does balanced mean in that context? Sorry English isn’t my first language so terms in very specific areas are hard for me to come by or pick up haha

 

[monkish]

@karenmonique Balanced training SHOULD mean teaching positive but also using aversives to correct behavior that is potentially dangerous to people or other animals.

What I mostly see as "balanced" on social media though is just people bullying dogs into one exact behavior using prong collars, e-collars or slip leads without a stop so the dog doesn't dare to do anything but what has been asked of him.

Which isn't exactly balanced in my book.

 

[karenmonique]

@monkish Yeah that sounds horrible. I can’t believe shock collar, e collars, prong collars and co even exist. I’ve never seen something like it in Germany.

 

[monkish]

@karenmonique That's because of §3 TierSchG in combination with § 2 Abs. 5 TierSchHuV.

Other words:
Using such things is prohibited in Germany.

And honestly they're not necessary.

My favorite dogtrainer said:
"The more you have to use those tools the worse you are as a trainer."

 

[karenmonique]

@monkish And thank god for that! Although I could have sworn I’ve seen some prong collars now that I think about it. I hope I remember incorrectly because I agree, such things shouldn’t be used.

 

[monkish]

@karenmonique Since you can still buy them in some online stores or simply drive to Poland to get them there are most likely still people using them as with anything else that is prohibited.

It's way less nowadays than it was in the 90s/early 2000s luckily.

Will Atherton is one of the trainers with a truly balanced approach in my opinion, using corrections only if absolutely necessary and doing so in a fair and understandable way, while also being able to explain why and when he uses corrections to the owners.

 

[kimrossie]

@monkish Yes, this exactly. And THIS is why I think it's almost impossible to find an in person fully R+ dog trainer here in LA. I have LOOKED and LOOKED.

It's just "easier" to get results the other way, there's less of a learning curve, so it creates a glut of these "trainers".

So I found the best possible version of that other way for my dog, a guy who touts himself as "balanced" but also knows how sensitive and shy my girl is and uses an individualized approach with her after working with her for almost a year. And for the first year of her life, I can honestly say it was better than nothing (for her).

Now that I've finally found an R+ trainer, of course I'm getting nothing but judgement for using a "balanced" trainer before but it's honestly so so hard to find R+ ones!

You just have to be really savvy and advocate for your dog 100% and ignore the noise because there WILL be noise.

 

[monkish]

@kimrossie I'm happy you found an R+ trainer who you are comfortable and making progress with!

Personally I would call my own approach balanced in favor of R+.

I will correct dangerous behavior in my dog immediately and in a way that he realizes that he is never supposed to do that again. For me this works and I'm not physically hurting my dog, but for you that might not be a functional approach.

I see the benefits of using R+ to teach new behavior and shape all kinds of desired actions but I also had to realize that an R+ only approach doesn't work for me and my dog in my situation.

Since he gets easily spooked and is generally nervous outside I can't avoid going into and through situations with him that require me to sometimes pull him through because the first couple of days I had him he wouldn't have gone outside without me forcing him.

And I tried luring, tried waiting, tried praise, tried every approach I know. He would stop at the door and run back inside because just a leaf blowing by or a person walking past scared him.

Not going outside at all is unacceptable so I had to force him out the door.
By now he gets excited to go out when I tell him we're going for a walk so there's definitely no harm done and some added discomfort led to a lifetime of "Yay, we're going for a walk!"

I honestly haven't seen any actual "R+ only" trainer yet and also I feel like my dog actually enjoys me stepping in when he is about to make a mistake because he quickly realized that I'm just trying to make him win a reward of some sort.

As I said, balanced but heavily leaning towards the R+ side of training.

 

[citfield]

@karenmonique It's OK. Multi lingual is cool.

Balanced is a nice-sounding term for a trainer who uses both aversive tools like e-collars, prong collars, slip leads, halti's, and others. Additionally they are purported to use positive reinforcement like treats and toys to reinforce tasks. They don't always use positive reinforcement, but are trying to increase their client base.

 

[karenmonique]

@citfield Damn, I can’t believe there are still trainers that use e-collars and prong collars and slip leads. Thank you for explaining!

Last question (I hope) what’s the issue with haltis? I just found out about them the other day; I’ve never encountered them in real life.

 

[citfield]

@karenmonique It's a head harness that uses pressure on the bridge of the nose to increase control and reduce pulling.

 

[booboo222]

@karenmonique Just tacking on to the other commenter - any tool that is designed to suppress behaviour purely through force is an aversive, and head haltis without grounding lines to harnesses and a shitload of handler training present a huge risk to dysregulated dogs who may jump/lunge/buck on the tool and do themselves cervical spine injury.

The head halti works by putting pressure onto areas like ocular nerves which are incredibly sensitive, and controls where the dog can orient and their ability to engage with natural behaviours like tracking.

 

[karenmonique]

@booboo222 Oooh, intestine! Thank you for the in depth explanation. I first heard about halti’s the other day when someone in another dog subreddit asked, why her halti instantly calms down her dog, like within seconds of putting it on. I didn’t know what it was but figured from the description it had something to do with pressure points. It’s a shame that it can actually cause harm. If I’d know that, I’d have warned that Redditor…

 

[childman]

@jackih I swear I see the most exhausting shit on Instagram and TikTok. I follow great trainers! But the icky ones still get suggested to me.

I feel like loving my dog even though he’s absolutely insane is a major act of rebellion against these people who are like “if you can’t drop your dog’s leash in the middle of this store that clearly has a leash law posted should you even have a dog?” Or the “I use my ecollar so my dog can have off leash freedom even though most of that freedom is going to be me making him heel or follow 1,000 obedience commands.”

I just roll my eyes and take my dog out to swim in the creek. He’s far from perfect but he can do what he can and we’ve carved out a life.

Keep on keepin’ on. Your dog is lucky to have you.

 

[jackih]

@childman I love the we've carved out a life. That just resonates so much with me. Your dog is lucky to have you!

 

[hogynllan]

@jackih Any trainer that judges is a no go for me. A true trainer should never judge an owner nor blame them for their dog's reactivity. Even if the owner may have caused something, they likely didn't know. So many trainers just like to make the owner feel bad and that's never a good thing.

It's also worth noting that these are the same trainers with absolutely zero certifications and only have 'experience' to back them up. And sure, experience is a good thing, but it means absolutely nothing when you don't know WHY what you're doing is working, especially on a scientific level. They also tend to hate on current scientific evidence which is a red flag. Behavior is science yet they try to deny everything that's right in front of them.