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eCollars Save Lives
- Thread starter unlitmikey
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- dog training
@unlitmikey I doubt there would be a decline in high energy working breeds. Lots of trainers and people who don't use aversives keep high energy working breeds (fenzi is a popular one who owns a terv). People have these dogs in countries where ecollars are banned.
unlitmikey
New member
@unlitmikey Fenzi isn't doing anything out of the norm though. She's taking basic principles and applying them to high drive high energy dogs. Not every country with an ecollar ban has those specific legislations in place. I'm not even for banning ecollars but saying that there will be a decline in these breeds due to an ecollar ban is definitely not true. There are so many people who own these breeds that do not use aversives. Aversives aren't the end all be all in order to own working breeds.
@jopra You may be seeing only the ones that were successful with positive only. You aren't seeing the ones that were surrendered or euthanized because positive only wasn't enough.
I have a giant schnauzer that went through an ugly bullying stage during adolescence. With the help of a professional trainer and a prong collar, he learned that bullying people isn't going to work. He's grown into a fantastic pet, but that stage was scary and I saw why so many of these dogs get surrendered during adolescence.
I have a giant schnauzer that went through an ugly bullying stage during adolescence. With the help of a professional trainer and a prong collar, he learned that bullying people isn't going to work. He's grown into a fantastic pet, but that stage was scary and I saw why so many of these dogs get surrendered during adolescence.
clintpauljohnson
New member
godly_wife
New member
@clintpauljohnson She returned dice for behavior reasons. There were multiple dogs that in that litter that were returned. One that also used balanced methods, returned for same reason as dice.
@clintpauljohnson No she still has the terv you can see him on her page, she posts him daily. You might be thinking of a famous balanced trainer who supposedly trains service dogs, she's returned two Mal's.
clintpauljohnson
New member
@clintpauljohnson I only follow her regular page but on a recent live I saw two tervs and one super old dog that looks like a gsd maybe. I don't know any of the dogs names tho.
@unlitmikey Death Before Discomfort is in my opinion, one of the greatest disservices to dogs we’ve ever come up with
The Canine Paradigm has a Spotify episode on this where one of the trainers explains that someone came in with a Kelpie whose behaviour could be resolved with an e collar, but since he worked with a FF/PP training club, he wasn’t allowed to suggest these tools. The dog was not benefitting from PP/FF and the behaviour did not improve.
He had to tell the owners he couldn’t help them. Later on down the road he saw the owners who explained they had the dog put to sleep because it could not be fixed through the methods they were taught.
The Canine Paradigm has a Spotify episode on this where one of the trainers explains that someone came in with a Kelpie whose behaviour could be resolved with an e collar, but since he worked with a FF/PP training club, he wasn’t allowed to suggest these tools. The dog was not benefitting from PP/FF and the behaviour did not improve.
He had to tell the owners he couldn’t help them. Later on down the road he saw the owners who explained they had the dog put to sleep because it could not be fixed through the methods they were taught.
netsail007
New member
@raeh
Literally no one believes in this. This whole sub has turned into a huge echo chamber of people who think force free trainers are just out here killing dogs and a number of good contributors have opted to leave after repeatedly being called names, told they're idiots, told that their dog is going to blow off a recall and die eventually (as if no dog has ever blown off an ecollar) etc... even when following all the rules to say nothing negative about aversive tools, and the other user's behaviour is never addressed by moderators. I know @johnskat posted a while ago about changing that, and I understand it may be near impossible to do so with a single mod, but realistically nothing has changed. There are constant posts on this sub that contribute nothing but a bitch fest about r/dogtraining and force free methods.
And yes, I'm posting this from a throwaway because I don't want to spend the next month blocking people when the name calling and harassment moves to my DMs as it has in the past.
Death Before Discomfort
Literally no one believes in this. This whole sub has turned into a huge echo chamber of people who think force free trainers are just out here killing dogs and a number of good contributors have opted to leave after repeatedly being called names, told they're idiots, told that their dog is going to blow off a recall and die eventually (as if no dog has ever blown off an ecollar) etc... even when following all the rules to say nothing negative about aversive tools, and the other user's behaviour is never addressed by moderators. I know @johnskat posted a while ago about changing that, and I understand it may be near impossible to do so with a single mod, but realistically nothing has changed. There are constant posts on this sub that contribute nothing but a bitch fest about r/dogtraining and force free methods.
And yes, I'm posting this from a throwaway because I don't want to spend the next month blocking people when the name calling and harassment moves to my DMs as it has in the past.
@netsail007 I’ve already posted a real example of force free-only trainers leading to the death of dogs. You just ignored it for some reason.
I haven’t seen anyone insulted or called names, but being told that your dog will eventually blow off a recall is a real thing, I promise you. One day your dog will be an animal and act like an animal, and you will be helpless to stop it.
My question is what a FF trainer would do? Can you answer this? I’ve been asking this question for years on Reddit and have never had an answer.
I haven’t seen anyone insulted or called names, but being told that your dog will eventually blow off a recall is a real thing, I promise you. One day your dog will be an animal and act like an animal, and you will be helpless to stop it.
My question is what a FF trainer would do? Can you answer this? I’ve been asking this question for years on Reddit and have never had an answer.
@netsail007 I’ve already posted a real example of force free-only trainers leading to the death of dogs.
I haven’t seen anyone insulted or called names, but being told that your dog will eventually blow off a recall is a real thing, I promise you. One day your dog will be an animal and act like an animal, and you will be helpless to stop it.
My question is what a FF trainer would do? Can you answer this? I’ve been asking this question for years on Reddit and have never had an answer.
I haven’t seen anyone insulted or called names, but being told that your dog will eventually blow off a recall is a real thing, I promise you. One day your dog will be an animal and act like an animal, and you will be helpless to stop it.
My question is what a FF trainer would do? Can you answer this? I’ve been asking this question for years on Reddit and have never had an answer.
netsail007
New member
@raeh
Death before discomfort is not something that anyone believes. Do you think that no balanced trainer has ever fucked up and had a dog injured or dead because we've seen a number of balanced trainers this year causing injuries through corrections, and before you say those trainers are not real balanced trainers or at least not good at what they do why is it that when a balanced trainer breaks a dog's hip "correcting them" that trainer is the problem but when a force free trainer fails to get a perfect recall it's force free as a whole that a complete failure? Why are you holding force free trainers to a standard that balanced trainers don't meet?
What will you do if your dog isn't wearing an ecollar the moment they run off? Or what do you do when a dog runs through an ecollar? The collar isn't magic. Dogs run through them, especially dogs with high prey drive. So what then?
Things go wrong. Having your dog off leash is a risk, no matter what tool you use. This isn't an issue isolated to force free trainers.
I’ve already posted a real example of force free-only trainers leading to the death of dogs.
Death before discomfort is not something that anyone believes. Do you think that no balanced trainer has ever fucked up and had a dog injured or dead because we've seen a number of balanced trainers this year causing injuries through corrections, and before you say those trainers are not real balanced trainers or at least not good at what they do why is it that when a balanced trainer breaks a dog's hip "correcting them" that trainer is the problem but when a force free trainer fails to get a perfect recall it's force free as a whole that a complete failure? Why are you holding force free trainers to a standard that balanced trainers don't meet?
My question is what a FF trainer would do? Can you answer this? I’ve been asking this question for years on Reddit and have never had an answer.
What will you do if your dog isn't wearing an ecollar the moment they run off? Or what do you do when a dog runs through an ecollar? The collar isn't magic. Dogs run through them, especially dogs with high prey drive. So what then?
Things go wrong. Having your dog off leash is a risk, no matter what tool you use. This isn't an issue isolated to force free trainers.
@netsail007 Wtf is a trainer doing with tools that would break a dogs hip, lmao
Force free trainers tell owners their dogs cannot be fixed, they cannot help them, and those dogs either get PTS or wind up in shelters and then PTS
Why would my dog be off leash without an e collar?
Having your dog off leash is a risk but e collar trainers can at least get their dog back in one piece, alive
Force free trainers tell owners their dogs cannot be fixed, they cannot help them, and those dogs either get PTS or wind up in shelters and then PTS
Why would my dog be off leash without an e collar?
Having your dog off leash is a risk but e collar trainers can at least get their dog back in one piece, alive
netsail007
New member
@raeh
I'm not sure why you find that funny but it's something that literally happened when a balanced trainer slammed a dog on the ground as a correction. I'm sure you can find the video if you look it was posted on this sub.
Does that mean ever balanced trainer is abusing dogs? No. So again, why is one force free trainer failing a dog proof that all force free is trash and killing dogs?
Again, this is not happening. It is true that not every dog can be fixed regardless of training methodology. Sometimes BE is the only remaining option and anyone denying that is just spewing BS. But there is no evidence at all that force free trainers are just abandoning perfectly trainable dogs or recommending that they be put down rather than cause a dog any discomfort. That's simply not true.
Your dog wears an ecollar 24 hours a day? Dogs slip leashes, people drop leashes, dogs run out doors etc...
If you assume an ecollar is magic sure, but sorry even trainers like Gellman who are very comfortable administering high level corrections will admit that some dogs run through them. I have a dog who was bred to chase and kill coyotes, a shock regardless of level isn't worse than a coyote attacking them yet dogs get serious injuries doing that job and keep up the chase.
Wtf is a trainer doing with tools that would break a dogs hip, lmao
I'm not sure why you find that funny but it's something that literally happened when a balanced trainer slammed a dog on the ground as a correction. I'm sure you can find the video if you look it was posted on this sub.
Does that mean ever balanced trainer is abusing dogs? No. So again, why is one force free trainer failing a dog proof that all force free is trash and killing dogs?
Force free trainers tell owners their dogs cannot be fixed, they cannot help them, and those dogs either get PTS or wind up in shelters and then PTS
Again, this is not happening. It is true that not every dog can be fixed regardless of training methodology. Sometimes BE is the only remaining option and anyone denying that is just spewing BS. But there is no evidence at all that force free trainers are just abandoning perfectly trainable dogs or recommending that they be put down rather than cause a dog any discomfort. That's simply not true.
Why would my dog be off leash without an e collar?
Your dog wears an ecollar 24 hours a day? Dogs slip leashes, people drop leashes, dogs run out doors etc...
Having your dog off leash is a risk but e collar trainers can at least get their dog back in one piece, alive
If you assume an ecollar is magic sure, but sorry even trainers like Gellman who are very comfortable administering high level corrections will admit that some dogs run through them. I have a dog who was bred to chase and kill coyotes, a shock regardless of level isn't worse than a coyote attacking them yet dogs get serious injuries doing that job and keep up the chase.
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