Why I chose to use an e collar and my experience / results

[joannsak]

@nobodyuknow Fully agree with your edit. This is true of any training situation and any training tool so I’m not sure why you’re singling us out.

 

[nobodyuknow]

@joannsak Singling who out? For what? I am confused.

 

[natsu]

@nobodyuknow I thought the discourse was welcome, OP invited it. Even something used correctly can still be an aversive negative reinforcer. Just because it's aversive doesn't make it outright cruel. But the woman using the ecollar without clarity was cruel and it wasn't necessary in her scenario. And that's what people are thinking of when they say it is cruel. For me personally, I would rather use a whistle bc it's a distinct and unmistakable tone which can be heard over a longer distance than the voice. I don't want to use ecollars, and I gave my reasons and what I would use instead to use only r+. So I'm starting to feel like this isn't so much open training but anti r+ LIMA. If this is open dog training, we should be allowed to have an open discussion.

Also, imagine that he got out of the yard and wasn't wearing the ecollar. You aren't supposed to have them wear it all the time. What do you do then?

 

[jasdksdc]

@natsu Hey yeah I do welcome the discourse - thank you. I started off as r+ LIMA also on every aspect of her behaivour but despite great progress with most things unfortunately hit a road block with recall and no one could help me.

Also, imagine that he got out of the yard and wasn't wearing the ecollar. You aren't supposed to have them wear it all the time. What do you do then?

I hope that with the right training I can totally transition off the e collar like I did with 3 months of the prong collar.

 

[tiavina]

@jasdksdc It's the same as a long line essentially, it's building successful repetitions until a habit is created.
I worked extensively on the habit building, lots of quick touches, every release is a touch first and then free.
For recall the ecollar isn't necessary for me anymore but I use it for further development of distance work which is mostly done with a mild vibration.
I've gone ecollar free on occasions, flat battery or swimming no issue, it's training, rewarding, enforcing and persistence. If it was enforcing without training and no reward or consistency then it's unlikely to be successful.
I see no issue with putting the ecollar on though, the dog loves it, gets excited for adventures.
We have used the ecollar harshly at times with professional assistance with aggression, reactivity sessions as well and interrupting extreme reactivity which saved this dogs life... and no issue, it still loves it and us as much as ever. Though it is a heeler and I suspect they like corrections

 

[joannsak]

@natsu As long as you’re not saying that we shouldn’t use ecollars. You have to look at each dog and trainer individually and not make blanket statements.

 

[natsu]

@joannsak I did not say anywhere that you shouldn't. I personally would rather use a whistle, that means me.

 

[joannsak]

@natsu Ok, thanks for clarifying! Just keep in mind that a whistle might not work for every combination of dog and trainer.

 

[nobodyuknow]

@natsu Where did you get the idea that discourse wasn't welcome? If I did so, I apologize.

I do hope that you understand that an e-collar is for reinforcing distance commands BEFORE they are needed, so that if the dog runs out without the collar, they have a solid recall. The e-collar isn't meant to be used forever.

Train the way you like. I use 100% positive with one of my dogs, and it works so well for her! I was trying to clear up some misconceptions because it sounds like the trainer you were watching didn't know how to properly use an e-collar. We're totally on the same page that an e-collar shouldn't be used to introduce new concepts or reinforce something the dog doesn't totally understand.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@natsu I very much agree with what you are saying. That woman was cruel.

You can use a whistle and an ecollar if you want, so I’m not totally sure why you don’t want to use an ecollar, but that’s totally cool.

Personally, I trained my dog until I was comfortable walking him off leash +r… and then I layered in an ecollar as a back up system. He gets an average of 2 seconds of very low level stim for an hour long walk, and we are working to get that number down to zero.

 

[joannsak]

@natsu You’re arguing against the worst version of ecollar training. I would argue this person would figure out a way to be shitty to their dog with or without the ecollar. I totally agree there is a right and wrong way to use them, just like any training tool including crates, flat collars with leash, front pull harnesses, halters, etc. just because some do it wrong doesn’t mean that ecollars can’t be a safe, humane, and effective training tool.

 

[natsu]

@joannsak I presented an example of why people see something a certain way bc OP invited discourse. Whether or not something is aversive can be answered by asking if it causes some discomfort to the dog when making a correction. A balanced trainer uses mild aversives as corrections and also positive reinforcement.

 

[joannsak]

@natsu I’m fine with the discourse, as long as you don’t judge our use of a very effective, safe, and humane training tool. Also, ecollars could definitely be consistent with what you said. Again, depending on how they are used, just like any training tool.

 

[natsu]

@joannsak I really can't judge. In some cases, it's the only way to legally walk the dog off lead. Just promise to keep it on low settings, please!

 

[joannsak]

@natsu A vast majority of the time it’s on a very low setting, and one of my dogs is on vibrate only. but let me ask you this. When you’re deciding between a high stim level correction and your dog hit by a car or paying for someone’s vet bill, which do you pick?

I have a rescue dog who has been in multiple altercations and was on leash only for many years. Started using the ecollar and now he gets to go off leash. When we first started using it we had to turn up the stim a couple times. Since then we have also used the ecollar when introducing him to other dogs and it has completely changed his reactivity. Those few moments of ‘non-mild’ aversion improved his quality of life so much. Are you telling me I should have kept him on leash and with zero friends his whole life to avoid a couple of high stim corrections?

 

[natsu]

@joannsak I can't answer that for you. My dogs were never off leash except in the backyard. There were no dogparks even. Goldie got out a few times bc Collies gotta wander. We would not have been around for the stim. My Cherubino never even tried to take off. I'm not sure he even thought about it because he was found on the street. Off leash is not my lifestyle choice. I only recently took my sister-in-law's dog to the dog park.

 

[joannsak]

@natsu Well thank you for keeping an open mind about other peoples lifestyle choices. Some dog breeds need a lot of exercise and it can be hard to provide that on leash especially if you don’t have a fenced yard. Whatever works for you and your dogs is great!

 

[joannsak]

@natsu Ps we almost never go to dog parks but that’s a whole other conversation

 

[natsu]

@joannsak Well it was the only way the poor thing got to run. Dog didn't have a fenced yard.

 

[joannsak]

@natsu For clarity i don’t have a problem with dog parks, they’re just not great for my dogs. However you can get them out running, I’m sure they appreciate!