Opinion on PennHip Results

warriorofyahweh

New member
I have a dog that was bred. I got her for breeding, so I made sure she came from healthy parents. I had all the DNA tests and everything cleared except for the hips and elbows checked out since she mated prior to me getting her examined. She’s 30 months old and I finally got her PennHip exam, 7 weeks after she gave birth. Her left hip was at .56 and her right hip at .70 just at the high risk line. Why would she have a really bad hip when her parents had really good results compared to the average of her breed. The central range for her breed is from .29 to .83. The average being .54. Her dad was at R.34 and L.41 and her mom was at R.56 and L.51. Is it a mistake on the test or evaluation?

They told me she should not be bred, but if that’s the case she should also not have had those results.

Can anyone give me some advice on whether I should not share results with potential buyers and let them see her parents results instead? Or whether I should have a second opinion? Would her giving birth a couple of months ago skew the test?

Please refrain from telling me it was irresponsible to breed her without having her tests done prior. If we are going to go by individual tests done on each dog and not their genetics, then the test would be irrelevant, as her whole litter might not be susceptible to hip dysplasia if it wasn’t genetic.

Final note. I also own the stud and his results are fine.
 
@warriorofyahweh Lots to unpack here. So let’s start with what a hip test is.

Hips are a polygenetic trait (controlled by many genes) and thus we do not understand the inheritance of them. There is no such thing as a simple yes or no for hip dysplasia testing like there is for say - PRA, as an example. However, it is still a genetic trait and is heritable. Parents with great hips, very much tend to produce puppies with great hips. Parents with dysplastic hips, are very likely to produce puppies who also have dysplasia. This is fact. Because it’s not as a simple as a yes or no, and there is a range to how good or bad hips can be, responsible breeders try to breed as good of hips as they can. The better hips you breed, the less likely you are to have dysplastic puppies.

Sometimes dogs can develop hip dysplasia without it being caused by genetic - HOWEVER, this requires there be extreme trauma to the joint during development. Like, hit-by-a-car-as-a-puppy levels of trauma. If this kind of trauma has not happened, then the hips seen today as an adult dog are entirely genetics. This is not true for your dog, therefore her hips are either genetic, or she has some other genetic disorder making her growth funny. Either way, not a thing you want to pass on to another generation.

Her parents results are within the breed average. How good they are are entirely dependent on the health of the breed overall. Some breeds have large issues with hip dysplasia and you can have a dog be severely dysplastic and unfortunately that’s within breed average. For other breeds, they are generally so rarely dysplastic that the average falls well into healthy hips. If you say for your breed, a 0.7 is in the high risk category, then it sounds like her parents were mild-moderate risk for hip dysplasia. So, when her parents were bred, there was a mild to mdoerate risk they’d develop degenerative joint disease (djd), and a mild to moderate risk that any puppies they produce, would also have DJD one day. Your dog is one of those puppies. Some of those puppies in that same litter, may have gotten the better hips genes, and you just got unlucky. This is why we test every single breeding candidate dog prior to being bred, to make sure that you didn’t get unlucky, like what happened in your case here. We avoid breeding dogs with too high of a risk for DJD/dysplasia as it is too risky of producing unhealthy puppies.

TLDR on this paragraph, her parents have passing scores, but they are by no means fabulous outstanding hip scores. They are in the middle of breed average, and no more. Even dogs with outstanding scores have a small risk of producing DJD puppies. But the better the parents, the lesser the risk. Sounds like you got unlucky but this is entirely possible to happen and be still absolutely a genetic cause.

Having puppies months prior would not affect the test as there should be no relaxin in her system. But if you do not like the results, feel free to have them redone. If you get the same results twice, you have your answer. Pennhip is incredibly reputable and I would absolutely trust their report, especially if I had it sent in twice like you sound like you may want to do.

I’d alert all puppy owners. They should get rads done of their puppies once they reach maturity, and you should hope they are all ok. They’re already on the ground and there isn’t much more you can do for them than that as this time. And then I’d book your female in for a spay. Her results are a fail, she is not a breeding quality dog.

We do test dogs prior to breeding. We test all dogs prior to breeding. The only tests you may be able to skip are DNA-swab tests. Testing that is phenotype based (hips, eyes, thyroid, heart, etc) must be done to every single breeding dog every single generation. There is no such thing as “cleared by parentage” for these tests - and all of those conditions are still known to be heritable. Things can be genetic, and we can still need to test every generation. Those two statements can exist and be true at the same time.

Once your girl is spayed, you can look again for another breeding female. Complete all of her OFA testing prior to breeding, and hope your efforts will be rewarded with a litter of wonderfully happy puppies that enjoy an improved quality of life thanks to your hard work to ensure their health.
 
@preciousleslee Well I also bred her knowing that I might have to keep all puppies should I have no buyers in this economy. I think what I’ll do is just get all the puppies PennHip tested at 16 weeks and keep the ones that don’t test well and sell the ones that have good results. Seems like the easiest thing to do.
 
@donnags1964 Pennhip can be done that early. OFA prelims can also be done that early. Only standard OFAs require a dog be 2 years old. And if you’re only looking for dysplastic or non-dysplastic for this scenario, it’d be ok to rely on prelims. For breeding decisions, you want to wait until maturity.
 
@warriorofyahweh Why would you breed a dog not planning for them to all homes to call their own? Of course things happen, but that should always be the goal. Ethical breeders typically have most or all of their homes lined up before the litter is on the ground. I strongly encourage you to find a breed mentor if you plan to continue breeding.
 
@richardy JHFC I asked for an opinion and I got it. There’s more to breeding than one PennHip score. Like I said all her other tests were cleared. The stud was cleared and scored really low so he has great hips. Her one bad score doesn’t mean the puppies are going to be dysplastic as many of you pointed out. I purchased from breeders where everything cleared on the parents and still got this score on her. If you look at Hip Dysplasia on some breeds the numbers haven’t gone down and there’s still as many dysplastic dogs in certain breeds even when breeding low scores. I bred my healthy dog cleared by vets and everyone here is acting like I just wrote a death sentence to all the puppies. They are doing fine, they are loved and spoiled. The birthing was fine. There’s breeds out there I.e. pugs and French bully’s that can barely breathe and are being bred so much. Those breeds only give birth with c sections, and I always hear of those passing. I see breeders on YouTube where their puppies are always passing for those reasons but they still breed because their dogs passed all their exams. I didn’t set out to save the world. the fact is that the puppies are healthy and thriving. None of them passed on me. They will be fine. I already had a plan for them. Thanks for the good info from the few people that gave good insight. Just needed to know whether I should disclose to buyers and how common it was for puppies to be worse than their parents. But everyone else has told me the pups are fine and not too worry about it. If anything it’s a good match between my two dogs. And that’s on period grrrls 🤣
 
@warriorofyahweh Just because there are worse breeders out there doesn't mean you should use those for comparison. Set a better standard for yourself and your dogs if you love the dog breed you're breeding and want to improve it. When breeders start cutting corners on health is when the standard and health of a breed start deteriorating.

This is not a cheap business, and not as simple as it may seem at first glance. Learn from this mistake, and like everyone suggested, spay that female and invest into another, disclose the results to potential buyers, get in touch with a good experienced breeder and learn from the whole experience to do better in the future both for the sake of your own dogs, the puppies and the breed as a whole. 👍
 
@warriorofyahweh Sorry, but it was irresponsible of you to breed her before having ALL of her health testing done. End of story.
Dysplastic dogs can produce normal dogs and normal dogs can produce dysplastic dogs. Hence why we do OFAs prior to breeding. Genetics are only a piece of the puzzle and both elbow and hip dysplastia are epigenetic. I would recommend finding a mentor in your breed from your parent club website and using your parent clubs recommended health testing as your bare minimum.
I would notify your buyers so they can monitor their puppies.
 
@warriorofyahweh Absolutely not, a dog with great hips can produce a poor puppy, but for every low score, the chances of a poor puppy increase dramatically. Find a breed mentor and spay your girl. Don’t keep more then one pup, littermate syndrome is not a joke
 
@warriorofyahweh It's a bell curve. a good dog will produce MOSTLY GOOD puppies, with some of them being great, and some of them being bad. A bad dog will produce mostly bad puppies, with some of them being good, and some of them being terrible.
 
@warriorofyahweh I have one dog with a .29 PennHip DI and we were very happy with this, but his CHED was 5:3 (8 total) and that is only equivocal to OFA Good. I can't imagine how high a score a .7+ DI would equate to.

A .7+ PennHip DI would be disqualified from breeding consideration as per my breed, because we only allow breeding at the breed average number or below. We don't fully understand the genetics of dysplasia yet but we know, as has been stated in other comments, that dogs with bad hips produce a higher number of puppies with bad hips. Dogs with good hips can still produce puppies with bad hips because you need to look at the structure of both dogs, not just the tightness of the hips in a vacuum.
 
@warriorofyahweh
If we are going to go by individual tests done on each dog and not their genetics, then the test would be irrelevant, as her whole litter might not be susceptible to hip dysplasia if it wasn’t genetic.

The problem with this line of thinking is that we're talking about a trait that may be influenced by multiple variants of multiple genes.

Parents with better hips are more likely to have puppies with better hips, but will still produce a range of different hips in their offspring. And that's likely to be because the puppies with worse hips out of the litter inherited a slightly different combination of their parents' genes, so it is genetic and those dogs will tend to produce puppies with worse hips than the average hips in their parents' litter.
 
@warriorofyahweh A parent who passes their OFAs or other comparable tests does not guaranteed offspring that will. Puppies largely are influenced by their environment in the first year of life. If they are jumping up and down from sofas/high areas, raised on slick floors, etc it can contribute to them failing their tests. That said pairing a fair or bad dame to a good or excellent stud could help in this situation being that they’ve already been bred and there’s nothing you can do. I do OFA and I get rads done every single year after OFA prelims and 2 year passing scores to ensure my pups are as healthy as they can be. That said it is imperative that we as breeders educate buyers on the risks of environment especially with high energy dogs during when their ligaments and bones are growing.
 
@warriorofyahweh Food for thought: PennHIP done at 16 weeks (or even much older, but before full-grown) can change significantly when repeated at maturity. The change tends to be in only one direction, though, if it occurs at all: It improves.

By any chance were both parents tested by Embark, and if so, was the litters genetic COI predicted by Embark?

Hips are polygenic, as stated well in an earlier comment, and I'm not sure there is a well-established correlation between COI and hip scores, or COI and variation in scores within a litter, but there is reasonable theory supporting an expectation of generally superior hip scores for lower COI. The genes for dysplasia are clearly recessive (otherwise we would have a lot more dysplastic hips) and the chances of inheriting the same recessive genes for dysplasia from both parents are reduced in lower COI breedings. But as you probably already know, genetics have some randomness, and sometimes we get surprises when what is less likely is what actually happens, like the person who buys just one lottery ticket and happens to win.
 

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