@anadascal Hospitals are obligated to report animal bites to the 'animal inspector', possible the dog officer, animal control, board of health. You could call the hospital anonymously (how can we do that these days?) and give all the names, address, age of child, and circumstances of the bite, in case 'Sarah' lied. Call the police and ask for a welfare / wellness check because you have evidence that a child is in danger and was recently injured. Is there a husband/ father of the child in the picture? A grandmother to the child?
My friend’s GSD mix just attacked her 1 y/o son. She sees nothing wrong with this. Help?
- Thread starter anadascal
- Start date
jessemini14
New member
@anadascal Firt things first- I'm so sorry to hear about this situation. You are in an incredibly difficult position. It sounds to me like you are approaching it with deep care about safety, and lots of love. No one could ask for more. Thank you 
I want to echo the sentiments of other commenters and affirm your own intuitions- this is a very very big deal. Jennie is feeling uncomfortable/unsafe, and is escalating her aggressive behaviour to meet her needs. The next bite could happen earlier in her stress build and/or could be much more serious.
How do you get Sarah to see that this is a big deal? Sarah's attitude sounds very troubling, and she does need to change her thinking. But it may help to start with where she is right. I think Sarah is absolutely correct that Jennie's aggressive reaction was understandable. I'm guessing Sarah isn't great at noticing/understanding Jennie's warning signals, but she clearly has some understanding that her dog is very stressed by her toddler, and that stress is what motivated the bite. This is all true! And valuable information! Sarah's empathy for her dog's experience and perspective is not a bad thing.
What is a bad thing is to minimize the seriousness of the dog's stress, and the likely consequences if that stress is not managed/ changed. Jennie may have already begun to learn that she is not safe in her own home, and that the only way to get her needs met/ have her boundaries respected is to bite. Jennie may be very likely to bite again the next time Zac touches her in a way she does not like.
What it would take for Jennie to remain in that home safely:
Caveat: this is just a layman's high level, back of the envelope list. A trainer who is an expert in aggression should do a full assessment. Additionally, it may not be possible at all for Jennie to live in the home safely, even if the below is in place.
What concerns me most is that Sarah said she'll be "getting Jennie retrained". It sounds like there is a lot of retraining required in this situation, but most of it should be for Sarah. If there is any hope of that dog continuing to live in that home safely, Sarah needs to become an expert in her dog's boundaries, needs, emotions, communicaiton signals. She needs to learn a lot about aggression. She needs to become an expert in management and safety protocols. Sarah needs to advocate for, manage, soothe, support, coach, and train Jennie. Every single day. If she doesn't, Jennie will not have the help she needs to feel safe in her home, or learn new behaviours. There is no board and train or puppy class that can fix this. It has to happen every day, in the home, with the family.
As for Jennie's training: Jenne will need to be slowly socialized to Zac. That means short infrequent interactions that cause Jennie zero stress, and NO OTHER INTERACTIONS AT ALL between Jennie and Zac. Ever. It will be painstaking, slowwwww, and must be very carefully managed. Zac must never be allowed to touch Jennie in a way she doesn't like. Jennie also needs to be trained to choose other behaviours when she feels stressed (could be flight training, rebuilding warning signals, choosing a safe space, etc). Importantly- the vast majority of that training needs to happen in the home. Sarah needs to be the trainer. Sarah and Jennie need to develop an extremely strong bond of mutual trust and collaboration. Jennie needs to trust that Sarah will help her feel safe and protect her boundaries. As I said above- the owner must be the one to do this work. Dogs like Jennie need constant support from a skilled guardian.
And, while all of that training is going on, management must be absolutely flawless. Dog and baby must be completely and securely separated at all times, except during structured training sessions. Muzzle use is probably a good plan (that involves slow and careful muzzle conditioning to be added to the training list). Jennie should get lots of enrichment every day, and be kept away from any other triggers she may have. Jennie's life should be as stress free as possible, to set her up for successful behaviour modification.
The cost of all of the above can be immense. As I said above, Sarah needs to work closely with an expert in aggression. She should also speak to a vet about behavioural medication, and possibly consult a vet behaviourist. She will need to modify the infrastructure in her home to make it secure with sufficiently sturdy locking gates/ door locks. She'll need to buy a muzzle (many of us end up having to buy a few before we find one that works). She may need to buy equipment to help Jennie with her emotional life- could include enrichment toys, white noise machines, etc. Sarah may need to hire help for walking Jennie, given how much time will have to spent on everything else required to improve the situation (important that any dog walker is R+ only, is experienced with aggressive dogs, and takes Jennie on decompressing outings). But I believe the biggest cost will be in time spent, opportunities lost, and emotional energy. Sarah will have to be vigilant 100% of the time. Rehabilitating Jennie while keeping her baby safe will be unrelenting, exhausting, high stakes, emotional work. The cost of a mistake is her kid's life. She will have to show up emotionally and pragmatically for her dog and her kid in a very intense way, all of the time.
Ideally, it wouldn't be that extreme forever. Ideally, behaviour modification works and you develop some good management strategies that work for your life. But that is the ideal, not a guarantee. And it would take months or years to get there.
Takeaway:
So do you need to try to convince Sarah to rehome Jennie? I don't know. But someone needs to help her understand what it would take for her to keep Jennie. Someone needs to help her think realistically about this situation, and wrap her mind around how incredibly serious it is. I know a couple of incredible people who safely foster or own aggressive dogs and have children. It can be done. But it is not for the average bear- it is for the extremely committed, educated (or willing and able to quickly get educated), passionate person who wants to dedicate a few years of their life to rehabilitating a dog. That is THE hobby, THE weekend activity, THE topic of your books/ podcasts. If Sarah wants to and can be this person, then I commend her.
Try to have some compassion for Sarah as you speak with her about this. It sounds like she loves Jennie, and knows that Jennie isn't being set up for success. There is a lot of grief and pain for a person in Sarah's position. Blame and shame are not likely to help her get her thinking where it needs to be. Empathize where you can. Let her have room for her feelings.
But please for the love of that little boy, don't drop this. This is a very dangerous situation. No one has to label Jennie a bad dog, or Zac a bad kid, or Sarah a bad dog owner. But this is a BAD situation. It must be resolved, now.
I want to echo the sentiments of other commenters and affirm your own intuitions- this is a very very big deal. Jennie is feeling uncomfortable/unsafe, and is escalating her aggressive behaviour to meet her needs. The next bite could happen earlier in her stress build and/or could be much more serious.
How do you get Sarah to see that this is a big deal? Sarah's attitude sounds very troubling, and she does need to change her thinking. But it may help to start with where she is right. I think Sarah is absolutely correct that Jennie's aggressive reaction was understandable. I'm guessing Sarah isn't great at noticing/understanding Jennie's warning signals, but she clearly has some understanding that her dog is very stressed by her toddler, and that stress is what motivated the bite. This is all true! And valuable information! Sarah's empathy for her dog's experience and perspective is not a bad thing.
What is a bad thing is to minimize the seriousness of the dog's stress, and the likely consequences if that stress is not managed/ changed. Jennie may have already begun to learn that she is not safe in her own home, and that the only way to get her needs met/ have her boundaries respected is to bite. Jennie may be very likely to bite again the next time Zac touches her in a way she does not like.
What it would take for Jennie to remain in that home safely:
Caveat: this is just a layman's high level, back of the envelope list. A trainer who is an expert in aggression should do a full assessment. Additionally, it may not be possible at all for Jennie to live in the home safely, even if the below is in place.
What concerns me most is that Sarah said she'll be "getting Jennie retrained". It sounds like there is a lot of retraining required in this situation, but most of it should be for Sarah. If there is any hope of that dog continuing to live in that home safely, Sarah needs to become an expert in her dog's boundaries, needs, emotions, communicaiton signals. She needs to learn a lot about aggression. She needs to become an expert in management and safety protocols. Sarah needs to advocate for, manage, soothe, support, coach, and train Jennie. Every single day. If she doesn't, Jennie will not have the help she needs to feel safe in her home, or learn new behaviours. There is no board and train or puppy class that can fix this. It has to happen every day, in the home, with the family.
As for Jennie's training: Jenne will need to be slowly socialized to Zac. That means short infrequent interactions that cause Jennie zero stress, and NO OTHER INTERACTIONS AT ALL between Jennie and Zac. Ever. It will be painstaking, slowwwww, and must be very carefully managed. Zac must never be allowed to touch Jennie in a way she doesn't like. Jennie also needs to be trained to choose other behaviours when she feels stressed (could be flight training, rebuilding warning signals, choosing a safe space, etc). Importantly- the vast majority of that training needs to happen in the home. Sarah needs to be the trainer. Sarah and Jennie need to develop an extremely strong bond of mutual trust and collaboration. Jennie needs to trust that Sarah will help her feel safe and protect her boundaries. As I said above- the owner must be the one to do this work. Dogs like Jennie need constant support from a skilled guardian.
And, while all of that training is going on, management must be absolutely flawless. Dog and baby must be completely and securely separated at all times, except during structured training sessions. Muzzle use is probably a good plan (that involves slow and careful muzzle conditioning to be added to the training list). Jennie should get lots of enrichment every day, and be kept away from any other triggers she may have. Jennie's life should be as stress free as possible, to set her up for successful behaviour modification.
The cost of all of the above can be immense. As I said above, Sarah needs to work closely with an expert in aggression. She should also speak to a vet about behavioural medication, and possibly consult a vet behaviourist. She will need to modify the infrastructure in her home to make it secure with sufficiently sturdy locking gates/ door locks. She'll need to buy a muzzle (many of us end up having to buy a few before we find one that works). She may need to buy equipment to help Jennie with her emotional life- could include enrichment toys, white noise machines, etc. Sarah may need to hire help for walking Jennie, given how much time will have to spent on everything else required to improve the situation (important that any dog walker is R+ only, is experienced with aggressive dogs, and takes Jennie on decompressing outings). But I believe the biggest cost will be in time spent, opportunities lost, and emotional energy. Sarah will have to be vigilant 100% of the time. Rehabilitating Jennie while keeping her baby safe will be unrelenting, exhausting, high stakes, emotional work. The cost of a mistake is her kid's life. She will have to show up emotionally and pragmatically for her dog and her kid in a very intense way, all of the time.
Ideally, it wouldn't be that extreme forever. Ideally, behaviour modification works and you develop some good management strategies that work for your life. But that is the ideal, not a guarantee. And it would take months or years to get there.
Takeaway:
So do you need to try to convince Sarah to rehome Jennie? I don't know. But someone needs to help her understand what it would take for her to keep Jennie. Someone needs to help her think realistically about this situation, and wrap her mind around how incredibly serious it is. I know a couple of incredible people who safely foster or own aggressive dogs and have children. It can be done. But it is not for the average bear- it is for the extremely committed, educated (or willing and able to quickly get educated), passionate person who wants to dedicate a few years of their life to rehabilitating a dog. That is THE hobby, THE weekend activity, THE topic of your books/ podcasts. If Sarah wants to and can be this person, then I commend her.
Try to have some compassion for Sarah as you speak with her about this. It sounds like she loves Jennie, and knows that Jennie isn't being set up for success. There is a lot of grief and pain for a person in Sarah's position. Blame and shame are not likely to help her get her thinking where it needs to be. Empathize where you can. Let her have room for her feelings.
But please for the love of that little boy, don't drop this. This is a very dangerous situation. No one has to label Jennie a bad dog, or Zac a bad kid, or Sarah a bad dog owner. But this is a BAD situation. It must be resolved, now.
@jessemini14 That used to be part of a dog group of people where some had 40 plus years experience in dealing with dogs and multiple letters behind their names some of them. and there was a mantra that they used -
I have never forgotten that nor the examples that they gave, so when we ask somebody to use management to separate a dog from a child like that, it's just probably not going to work. It rather scares me. It only takes a second
Code:
management always fails.I have never forgotten that nor the examples that they gave, so when we ask somebody to use management to separate a dog from a child like that, it's just probably not going to work. It rather scares me. It only takes a second
@anadascal I'll be the one to say it. What a horrible mother! I assume you're not in the states since they have to report an animal bite to animal control. If it were me I'd call animal control myself. Tell them the situation anonymously and tell them the hospital. Maybe you can get something done like that. If not then you need to make damn sure she knows she sucks as a parent.
imagebeastmarkbeast
New member
@anadascal Contact CPS
@anadascal This dog NEEDS a lot of things or biting WILL happen again. If your friend can't provide these things then it's down to BE (behavioral euthanasia) or rehoming
I specialize in GSDs like what you are describing. I raise them to do work but I also take in rehab cases. I have no doubt that your friend is right that this dog's aggression comes from fear but that fear needs to be addressed for everyone's safety and well being, including the dog's
This dog WILL need to see a vet and get anxiety medication on board. There's no "but" that will sway me on this after working with the breed for as long as I have and in the ways that I have. These dogs have either received the proper enrichment and training to be confident and excel or they have been abandoned, neglected or abused and it sticks with them for the rest of their life. They are prone to anxiety problems and even a well meaning but inexperienced dog owner who raises one from a puppy will likely still end up with some anxiety issues. GSDs are very well known for trainability and obedience but at the same time they are also well known for not being easy dogs or starter dogs and it's because of their many needs
In your friend's dog's case, it did not receive the proper upbringing and it will be anxious for the rest of its life. Getting anxiety medication is not a failure on your friend's part, it's a mercy that can provide quality of life and safety to her, her kid, and the dog itself. So, have your friend take the dog to the vet and discuss medication options as well as side effects to watch out for and other options if the first medication isn't the right fit
Next, this dog needs a lot of behavioral modification and therapy. Baseline, without any past traumas, GSDs need to be taught how to be confident so you can imagine with past trauma this will be even more important. The key here is not to use aversive training styles because they will make the anxiety worse. You want positive reinforcement, clicker training, lure and reward, or force free methods to train this dog. Only do things the dog is comfortable with. These methods build trust, understanding, and love between the dog and their owner. They also teach the dog to problem solve and be independent thinking which helps the dog be more confident. A dog can't be confident and fearful at the same time. A dog also can't learn when it's too scared, this is where the medication comes in. The dog will be less scared and can learn easier if it has something to help it be less afraid
Lastly, this dog will need specific training regiments for bite inhibition, healthy ways to cope, and this dog will need more exercise
If your friend can't provide all of this, she needs to re-home to someone who can do these things, and when I say that I mean she CAN'T re-home to anyone but someone prepared to do these things. Her other options is BE. The next time this dog bites like this again it will be put down for aggression. The dog at least deserves the dignity of going out with it's owners present and your friend will handle euthanasia better if it's on her times and not forced upon her by animal control
These are the bottom lines. You are correct to be worried. You are right that this is serious. One "freak out" from a GSD or GSD mix could mean a dead child. Then your friend will be down for negligent homicide as well as having lost her dog and her kid. Good on you for caring enough about her to be worried. Make sure she gets the message because it is indeed incredibly serious and she needs to treat it as such
This hasn't even gone into the discomfort and fear the dog is facing. All I can say on that is a dog willing to attack a defenseless child is definitely spending a lot of its time too stressed out and anxious. This dog is not comfortable or happy if a simple stepping on the tail by a light child terrifies it into such aggressive behavior. It's the humane decision to choose one of three options; BE, very intense training, behavior modification, and medical management from your friend herself, or to re-home to someone experienced, who has the time, and is willing to pay for everything the dog needs. Anything else is inhumane and someone else will get hurt just as badly or worse than her kid did this time
I specialize in GSDs like what you are describing. I raise them to do work but I also take in rehab cases. I have no doubt that your friend is right that this dog's aggression comes from fear but that fear needs to be addressed for everyone's safety and well being, including the dog's
This dog WILL need to see a vet and get anxiety medication on board. There's no "but" that will sway me on this after working with the breed for as long as I have and in the ways that I have. These dogs have either received the proper enrichment and training to be confident and excel or they have been abandoned, neglected or abused and it sticks with them for the rest of their life. They are prone to anxiety problems and even a well meaning but inexperienced dog owner who raises one from a puppy will likely still end up with some anxiety issues. GSDs are very well known for trainability and obedience but at the same time they are also well known for not being easy dogs or starter dogs and it's because of their many needs
In your friend's dog's case, it did not receive the proper upbringing and it will be anxious for the rest of its life. Getting anxiety medication is not a failure on your friend's part, it's a mercy that can provide quality of life and safety to her, her kid, and the dog itself. So, have your friend take the dog to the vet and discuss medication options as well as side effects to watch out for and other options if the first medication isn't the right fit
Next, this dog needs a lot of behavioral modification and therapy. Baseline, without any past traumas, GSDs need to be taught how to be confident so you can imagine with past trauma this will be even more important. The key here is not to use aversive training styles because they will make the anxiety worse. You want positive reinforcement, clicker training, lure and reward, or force free methods to train this dog. Only do things the dog is comfortable with. These methods build trust, understanding, and love between the dog and their owner. They also teach the dog to problem solve and be independent thinking which helps the dog be more confident. A dog can't be confident and fearful at the same time. A dog also can't learn when it's too scared, this is where the medication comes in. The dog will be less scared and can learn easier if it has something to help it be less afraid
Lastly, this dog will need specific training regiments for bite inhibition, healthy ways to cope, and this dog will need more exercise
If your friend can't provide all of this, she needs to re-home to someone who can do these things, and when I say that I mean she CAN'T re-home to anyone but someone prepared to do these things. Her other options is BE. The next time this dog bites like this again it will be put down for aggression. The dog at least deserves the dignity of going out with it's owners present and your friend will handle euthanasia better if it's on her times and not forced upon her by animal control
These are the bottom lines. You are correct to be worried. You are right that this is serious. One "freak out" from a GSD or GSD mix could mean a dead child. Then your friend will be down for negligent homicide as well as having lost her dog and her kid. Good on you for caring enough about her to be worried. Make sure she gets the message because it is indeed incredibly serious and she needs to treat it as such
This hasn't even gone into the discomfort and fear the dog is facing. All I can say on that is a dog willing to attack a defenseless child is definitely spending a lot of its time too stressed out and anxious. This dog is not comfortable or happy if a simple stepping on the tail by a light child terrifies it into such aggressive behavior. It's the humane decision to choose one of three options; BE, very intense training, behavior modification, and medical management from your friend herself, or to re-home to someone experienced, who has the time, and is willing to pay for everything the dog needs. Anything else is inhumane and someone else will get hurt just as badly or worse than her kid did this time
imagebeastmarkbeast
New member
@anadascal So… uhhh… my dog has bitten my child before when my kid refuses to respect her, we are talking pulls her leg or ears hard, and her most extreme reaction was to very lightly nip at their hand. She’ll try to get away, growl, and mouth at them well before she nips and when they do let go she retreats. She’s never so much as left a mark on them the nips are so gentle and I have caught them twisting her whole ear before.
That’s what it’s like when a dog is defending itself. That’s a dog with control. A bite like OP is describing is an out of control violent dog that is beyond help. That’s a BE bite. Rehoming is a deeply irresponsible option.
(btw ofc my kid got in huge trouble for being rough with our dog. It’s not remotely tolerated in our house. the point I’m making here is even when my dog was literally in pain she still barely nipped)
That’s what it’s like when a dog is defending itself. That’s a dog with control. A bite like OP is describing is an out of control violent dog that is beyond help. That’s a BE bite. Rehoming is a deeply irresponsible option.
(btw ofc my kid got in huge trouble for being rough with our dog. It’s not remotely tolerated in our house. the point I’m making here is even when my dog was literally in pain she still barely nipped)
solomonthepoor
New member
@anadascal The number of times my three children have accidentally fallen on, stepped on, whatever my dogs is innumerable. I teach them to be respectful and kind to our doggies but little kids have accidents like this all the time. The dog and baby really shouldn’t be together in the same space because you can’t stop this sort of thing from occurring even when you’re right next to them. Thank goodness I haven’t had reactive dogs- my first doggy would just hop up and run away when they were too much in his space and that was the worst of it really. I’d be horrified if he even acted like he might bite.
@anadascal
- I don’t think you can. It sounds like she has made up her mind.
- Yes of course- if it happened once it can happen again.
- Hope the bite isn’t severe
- Probably- but I doubt she will.
joerogan311
New member
@anadascal I have to preface this with I LOVE my dog so much
That said, if he bit a child bad enough that being put under for cosmetic surgery and stitches, said dog better be out of my home immediately. I wouldn't care if it were put to sleep or rehomed.
Kids before dogs. Always.
OP, your friend is an awful parent.
That said, if he bit a child bad enough that being put under for cosmetic surgery and stitches, said dog better be out of my home immediately. I wouldn't care if it were put to sleep or rehomed.
Kids before dogs. Always.
OP, your friend is an awful parent.
manofsteelandvelvet
New member
@anadascal Have you ever seen pictures of a child who survives a dog attack? There where a couple of kids in my elementary school that had horrific scaring due to dog attacks.
I’m the kind of person to google those pictures and send them to her.
I’m the kind of person to google those pictures and send them to her.
@anadascal Post to r/cps
itsdemtitans
New member
@anadascal The point I would make is that her poor baby is now growing up in a household where they are scared for their life. As a mom, hopefully she has the smarts to imagine how hard that must be for her baby.
I am a pediatric nurse and have taken care of many kids with dog bites and they all need trauma counseling to prevent PTSD. This child is young but will remember the attack.
I just don’t understand people who put animals before their actual child.
It’s time for a crucial conversation with your friend. You can do it!!! Practice before.
I am a pediatric nurse and have taken care of many kids with dog bites and they all need trauma counseling to prevent PTSD. This child is young but will remember the attack.
I just don’t understand people who put animals before their actual child.
It’s time for a crucial conversation with your friend. You can do it!!! Practice before.
tobiahjude99
New member
@anadascal When I was a vet tech, we put multiple dogs down after attacking children. The worst I'll never forget, 4 yr old was in surgery having his face reconstructed while we were putting the dog down. It's not worth a child's life.
@anadascal She needs to rehome the dog. Before I get jumped on for suggesting rehoming a dog that bit a child, look at the situation. A kid stepped on its tail, filled with sensitive nerves, and it reacted from the surprise and pain. Same thing happens when kids fall in dogs. The dog didn't attack the child. It doesn't take much to tear baby soft skin. The mother is 100% irresponsible and neglectful, but the dog shouldn't pay for that. Sounds like it would do fine in an adult only home with responsible owners from the small bit I read here.
I don't understand why any parents allow babies and dogs together.
I don't understand why any parents allow babies and dogs together.
stfranz324
New member
@anadascal At this point it’s child endangerment.
chrisforjesus
New member
@anadascal Call and report to animal control. Many states do a mandatory quarantine and more for bites.
@anadascal Explain to her that babies are curious and the baby will grab and pull on the dog. What babies do sadly! Next time they baby could end up being killed! I would contact cps and let them know the baby was bitten and mom did nothing!