@maysa Here are better pictures in daylight. I suppose you could call them mats, I’m certainly not planning on combing them out. They’re a bit more like a puli or Komondor though in that they’re not going to form a pelt or get any bigger and they don’t pull on her skin because they’re lighter than cords. Her last haircut was in July, they may be mats, but they’re stable. Her curls will still come off individually when I give her a haircut in a month or two and I can get a 7-blade through, I don’t need a 10-blade. Poodles are somewhat similar because they’re also a water retriever but I think their coat can sometimes be softer. But lagottos are bred to retrieve waterfowl and hunt truffles and grow a water-protective, maintenance-free coat. They can go 9 months without maintenance whereas when people do that with most doodles, it’s potentially harmful to their skin. The problem with lagotto owners is when they mix and match maintenance styles. Their coat either needs frequent grooming to keep it long, including combing it out off and on, or it needs the no maintenance method of growing it out and shaving it down.
Looking for tips from other groomers who have dealt with Lagottos and their crazy owners…
- Thread starter cicion
- Start date
-
- Tags
- dog grooming
@p4m3l4
The cords you're talking about are high maintenance and intentionally cultivated. They will form a classic matted pelt if left neglected. It's not a special intrinsic quality of their coat - they're highly managed specifically to not pelt. They also do get "bigger" in that the coat continues to grow so the cords get longer and need separating and bulk up as evidenced by the way the older sections on the ends of the cord are bulkier. This is so consistent across coat types and rooted in the physics of hair + friction that it even works this way with human hair.
But what is the maintenance that you're doing to make them "stable"? Again the stability of the cords is considered so because of the separation all the way down to the skin which is heavily cultivated. If the matting just "stablizes" and doesn't progress as in any other breed, why does she need to be shaved ever?
It's normal for a matted coat to break up into those curls when being shaved off. When they don't the matting is normally severe and verrrrry tight sometimes due to being washed repeatedly while heavily matted. It's also normal for a #7 to fit underneath even significant matting. The general insistence on the #10 being what to shave off matting with isn't due to that being the only blade that may fit under the matting - it's about mitigating risk of injury for the dog because of the longer teeth of the #7 blade. And a #7 isn't long. That's only 1/8" between the matting and the skin directly.
The question is what is physically happening in your opinion that's making this true in reality. Take something like a urine burn from pee soaking into the matting around a dogs genitals/stomach/legs. Why could this happen to a poodle cross and not a lagotto?
All that said-
I 100% agree with this!! I actually think not brushing consistently but getting a short all over shave every couple months is a totally fine routine. The issue with this comes in with the length of time in between shaves and the idea that allowing this pelt to form is different for different dogs. I've yet to see or hear how this matting differs so intensely from any other matting. These pictures are completely normal for the progression of matting - the tighter bulkier tangles closer to the skin and the looser curls on top of that. Totally classic even for the "doodle". This is even what leads partially to the classic "my doodle is not matted" trope - the hair looks brushable and loose and fluffy above the matting so the parent is confused as to why their dog needs shaved.
The cords you're talking about are high maintenance and intentionally cultivated. They will form a classic matted pelt if left neglected. It's not a special intrinsic quality of their coat - they're highly managed specifically to not pelt. They also do get "bigger" in that the coat continues to grow so the cords get longer and need separating and bulk up as evidenced by the way the older sections on the ends of the cord are bulkier. This is so consistent across coat types and rooted in the physics of hair + friction that it even works this way with human hair.
But what is the maintenance that you're doing to make them "stable"? Again the stability of the cords is considered so because of the separation all the way down to the skin which is heavily cultivated. If the matting just "stablizes" and doesn't progress as in any other breed, why does she need to be shaved ever?
It's normal for a matted coat to break up into those curls when being shaved off. When they don't the matting is normally severe and verrrrry tight sometimes due to being washed repeatedly while heavily matted. It's also normal for a #7 to fit underneath even significant matting. The general insistence on the #10 being what to shave off matting with isn't due to that being the only blade that may fit under the matting - it's about mitigating risk of injury for the dog because of the longer teeth of the #7 blade. And a #7 isn't long. That's only 1/8" between the matting and the skin directly.
The question is what is physically happening in your opinion that's making this true in reality. Take something like a urine burn from pee soaking into the matting around a dogs genitals/stomach/legs. Why could this happen to a poodle cross and not a lagotto?
All that said-
I 100% agree with this!! I actually think not brushing consistently but getting a short all over shave every couple months is a totally fine routine. The issue with this comes in with the length of time in between shaves and the idea that allowing this pelt to form is different for different dogs. I've yet to see or hear how this matting differs so intensely from any other matting. These pictures are completely normal for the progression of matting - the tighter bulkier tangles closer to the skin and the looser curls on top of that. Totally classic even for the "doodle". This is even what leads partially to the classic "my doodle is not matted" trope - the hair looks brushable and loose and fluffy above the matting so the parent is confused as to why their dog needs shaved.
@maysa I don’t know what to tell you anymore. Her curls separate down to the skin with no cultivation or maintenance. Her coat has had no cultivation in the 9 months since her last haircut and only baths and the occasional hygiene trim. I don’t let her coat go indefinitely because I live in Texas where it’s over 100 in the summer and also because of burrs and seeds getting tangled in her coat. Also it’s continuously growing so it will eventually get too long, that’s a separate issue from matting. She’s only a 27 ib dog and too much hair is heavy. She still gets hygiene trims and baths so no feces or urine build up.
surrenderingtogod
New member
@porthospathos Every lagotto I’ve ever groomed has had owners that were in cahoots with an anti groomer breeder. They are all bonkers. I won’t take them as clients anymore. I’d rather groom doodles all day.
porthospathos
New member
@surrenderingtogod That's so unfortunate
martalookingforanswers
New member
@cicion I’ve found luck with using a good quality Long pinned slicker on those buggers. I groom two on and off and their coat is a challenge! I have a French Barbet that I’m having the same kind of trouble with. Been grooming almost 31 years and I’ve never encountered a coat so rebellious. The lagatto is the closest comparison. Good luck!
@martalookingforanswers Since you actually have had to groom these guys, can I ask how you usually handle their coats? I only have short, stiff-pin slicker brushes so I’ll look into getting one of the longer pin slicker brushes ASAP (do you have any recommendations on brands?)
I’m having my customers bring them in pretty regularly, about every 6 weeks. I have had to shave them down a couple times. Once they’re short I try to keep the owners on regular schedules, I’ve had multiple discussions with the owners about products and tools to use at home but it seems like even with regular groom appointments and the owners doing what they can at home that the dogs coats tangle up. Aside from spending half the day dematting the dog, is there strategy, products, or tools you’ve found you have to use on them that you don’t on most other dogs’ coats?
Sorry to bother you for more advice, others are trying to give their 2 cents but a lot of what I’m getting is stuff that I already know and have tried and doesn’t seem to work on the Lagottos.
I’m having my customers bring them in pretty regularly, about every 6 weeks. I have had to shave them down a couple times. Once they’re short I try to keep the owners on regular schedules, I’ve had multiple discussions with the owners about products and tools to use at home but it seems like even with regular groom appointments and the owners doing what they can at home that the dogs coats tangle up. Aside from spending half the day dematting the dog, is there strategy, products, or tools you’ve found you have to use on them that you don’t on most other dogs’ coats?
Sorry to bother you for more advice, others are trying to give their 2 cents but a lot of what I’m getting is stuff that I already know and have tried and doesn’t seem to work on the Lagottos.
galileesilk
New member
@martalookingforanswers Thank you!
martalookingforanswers
New member
@cicion I can't freaking stand lagottos and their owners! They both are always mega high hit-their-head-on-the-moon anxious. And they always bring you those stupid packets of instructions...one woman brings me (every time) like 20 pages worth of info and full color photos full of bullshit fake "breed cuts" called stupid names like "the cappuccino cut" and "the latte cut" and "frappuchino." And yes, some of these specialty breed cuts are literally the standard teddy bear face type style.
Anyway, I've found that they come in two types of coat: 1) proper and 2) shitty. Proper coat is super, super coarse, and sheds slightly. It does mat but typically brushes out easily. Deshed conditioner helps. Shitty coat is shitty. It's softer and mats just as bad as a doodle and it sucks. So you have to treat it like doodle hair and if it has to be shaved, it has to be shaved.
I don't really have any special tips about dematting, it can either be done, or it can't, just like any other dog breed. Expensive conditioner, velocity dry 1000% no kennel drying at all, your best slicker brushes and combs...you've been grooming 10 years and you know what you're doing. I've groomed seven lagottos and four of them have shitty coat. There's just nothing magic you can do if they don't have the proper coat. I've got the long-pinned pink Chris Christensen brush and the super short pinned Miracle Coat brush. They're both good brushes and I don't really prefer one over the other. The Nature's Specialties deshedding conditioner is my go-to for any type of matting. Maybe these products make all the difference??? I wish I could be more helpful and tell you some kind of specific, definite fix, lol.
Anyway, I've found that they come in two types of coat: 1) proper and 2) shitty. Proper coat is super, super coarse, and sheds slightly. It does mat but typically brushes out easily. Deshed conditioner helps. Shitty coat is shitty. It's softer and mats just as bad as a doodle and it sucks. So you have to treat it like doodle hair and if it has to be shaved, it has to be shaved.
I don't really have any special tips about dematting, it can either be done, or it can't, just like any other dog breed. Expensive conditioner, velocity dry 1000% no kennel drying at all, your best slicker brushes and combs...you've been grooming 10 years and you know what you're doing. I've groomed seven lagottos and four of them have shitty coat. There's just nothing magic you can do if they don't have the proper coat. I've got the long-pinned pink Chris Christensen brush and the super short pinned Miracle Coat brush. They're both good brushes and I don't really prefer one over the other. The Nature's Specialties deshedding conditioner is my go-to for any type of matting. Maybe these products make all the difference??? I wish I could be more helpful and tell you some kind of specific, definite fix, lol.
@skyrue MY CLIENT GAVE ME THE SAME PACKET!
Stupid-ass Cappucino cut, Smoothie cut, this is obviously not AKC standard people! I hate whoever came up with that packet and the poor quality Mismatched photos for the cut examples. Ugh!
Thank you for the tips on products and tools. I’ve been working on these dogs for a little over a year and just been trying to go off the packets and trial and error it and decided to finally look stuff up on grooming them myself.
Found a site that seems to cover the grooming process pretty well, talks about doing all the trimming before the bath but also taking a guardcomb through the coat?! I don’t see how that’s possible.
All of the Lagottos I am currently grooming are around 1 year old so their coats are still sort of changing I guess. 1 out of the 3 I groom seems to have the coarse hair, but one just has this awful immensely thick hair that is always frizzy and tangled and the other one pretty much just has doodle hair.
If I wasn’t a groomer, I would love these dogs, but the fact I have to groom them has made me sort of hate them.
Stupid-ass Cappucino cut, Smoothie cut, this is obviously not AKC standard people! I hate whoever came up with that packet and the poor quality Mismatched photos for the cut examples. Ugh!
Thank you for the tips on products and tools. I’ve been working on these dogs for a little over a year and just been trying to go off the packets and trial and error it and decided to finally look stuff up on grooming them myself.
Found a site that seems to cover the grooming process pretty well, talks about doing all the trimming before the bath but also taking a guardcomb through the coat?! I don’t see how that’s possible.
All of the Lagottos I am currently grooming are around 1 year old so their coats are still sort of changing I guess. 1 out of the 3 I groom seems to have the coarse hair, but one just has this awful immensely thick hair that is always frizzy and tangled and the other one pretty much just has doodle hair.
If I wasn’t a groomer, I would love these dogs, but the fact I have to groom them has made me sort of hate them.
stevenmt33
New member
@cicion I’m just a little groomer in training so idk anything about Lagottos, but what if there’s so much dematting going on that it’s causing a lot of hair breakage and it’s make it mat even more? I don’t know to what extent matting is caused by breakage yet though (lack of experience still), so food for thought! But I really wish you the best of luck luck with these dogs and their owners
@stevenmt33 Just like “doodle” owners! YIKES!
So Lagottos should be a 5F or 7F , ALL OVER! Nose to tail. No brushing, except to trim their feet. And the ones I’ve seen at shows, look like overgrown ,unkempt shaggy dogs!
So Lagottos should be a 5F or 7F , ALL OVER! Nose to tail. No brushing, except to trim their feet. And the ones I’ve seen at shows, look like overgrown ,unkempt shaggy dogs!
stevenmt33
New member
@cicion I've ran onto the same problem, but hell if Im scissoring a matted one without brushing it out first. All the clients want me to give a full haircut without brushing. I hate this breed! The dogs are cute and I like them, but the owners are something else. Why don't they just do the haircut they want at home? I planned on giving it an all over cut and doing a messy head and barely scissoring between the eyes but the one puppy I had, mom didn't want me to brush it at all so I sent her home with a FFF and haven't seen her since. I hope someone here can enlighten us as to how to "properly groom" these dogs. Notes from the grooming tables says they require brushing, owners say otherwise.
aspiller1998
New member
porthospathos
New member
@aspiller1998 Luckily they don't even train how to groom corded dogs in my salon. I did have a corded Puli for just anal gland expression once tho
@cicion Do any of them actually care for the coat the way rustic coats are cared for, or are they asking for long trims? Lagottos are basically just supposed to be shaved all over once or twice a year, and for baths, they should be brushed through wet and left to air dry. Brushing this coat type dry just breaks it and makes it mat more. I feel like doing long, cute trims on these coats just makes it harder to maintain for everyone involved. Their coat isn't supposed to be manipulated, especially once dry. I'm imagining you bathing, drying, brushing, combing, and clipping a dry, long coat, and I don't think you'll ever see them mat free with that approach (or any approach really since they should have controlled matting).