He’s a 2 year old Australian cattle dog mix. He’s bitten 2 people. He’s always been reactive/fearful since I adopted him at 15 weeks. The first bite I didn’t think he would actually ever bite someone. The second one was a mistake on my boy friends moms part (she opened the door for a nieghbor - someone my dog didn’t know). She needed 7 stitches. He’s 30lbs. I’ve always avoided punishment/aversive training because I didn’t want to punish out his warning signals (growling and barking) but there was no warnings during his last bite. He just lunged and went for it. I’m willing to go to a new trainer in my area that uses a prong collar/e collar (upstate canine academy in NY). My question is, is it worth going to this trainer or should I just BE? I would love to rehome him but I think I get the impression I shouldn’t with a bite history. I’m down to spend the money to try to get him better or am I just wasting money? I love him so much he’s my first dog ever but I love to be outdoors, travel, hang out with family and friends and I can’t because of him (I’m 25F) I’m so scared next bite will be a child.
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Is BE the only option?
- Thread starter phyllis17
- Start date
@phyllis17 Have you tried medication, ideally prescribed by a veterinary behaviorist? Are the R+ trainers you've worked with actually credentialed and have experience with severe behavior? Anyone can call themselves a trainer and it be can tricky weeding out who is actually qualified.
I personally would not use aversive training tools as research has shown them the be harmful and less effective than R+ methods.
I personally would not use aversive training tools as research has shown them the be harmful and less effective than R+ methods.
@phyllis17 Trazodone isn't typically used as a daily med anymore because it kinda just zonks them out and impacts a dog's ability to learn so training progress can be much slower.
How far would you have to travel to see a VB? I know of people who have made 5 hour car rides to see one, and then are able to follow up virtually. They really are worth it because there's a lot of med options out there and most vets aren't well versed in them and are uncomfortable prescribing them.
How far would you have to travel to see a VB? I know of people who have made 5 hour car rides to see one, and then are able to follow up virtually. They really are worth it because there's a lot of med options out there and most vets aren't well versed in them and are uncomfortable prescribing them.
tangtoungler
New member
@lisad65 I just want to say while this is true for a lot of cases if you get the dose just right it can work. My girl takes Traz as her daily med. This girl does so many zoomies and play sessions every day. She learns pretty fast too. I've only had her 4 months and she's got about 15 commands under her belt + huge progress in her reactivity when she came to me with none.
@phyllis17 Some more details would be helpful, such as the circumstances and degree of the first bite, if the dog showed stress signals for that, etc. Also do you know their triggers? Is it territorial or something else? Btw our trainers told us that Trazodone (and maybe some other meds) can actually lower bite inhibition as an unfortunate side effect. Disclaimer They were not vet behaviorists but said they didn’t think traz would be appropriate for our fear reactive cattle dog based on experience. It could potentially have contributed to your dog’s lack of warning for the second bite if your dog is usual vocal in distress…(that’s speculation though of course)
You might be able to keep the dog, but you’ll definitely need everyone that’s around the dog to follow certain protocols. Like separation from guests, avoiding triggers, muzzle training. There’s lots of resources for those things on this sub, but if you can’t foresee yourself able to do that long term, you might have to consider ethical full disclosure rehoming or BE
You might be able to keep the dog, but you’ll definitely need everyone that’s around the dog to follow certain protocols. Like separation from guests, avoiding triggers, muzzle training. There’s lots of resources for those things on this sub, but if you can’t foresee yourself able to do that long term, you might have to consider ethical full disclosure rehoming or BE
@phyllis17 I would get a good trainer and a vetrinary behaviorist, some vets behaviorists do zoom consults. As for the trainer local is better if you can, r/dogtraining has a really good section on how to find a good trainer. Do not go to a trainer that uses adversice methods because it could make it worse.
I would also be very careful with managment and do muzzle training now so you have some protection until you can get good professional help.
If he has had very severe bites than BE could be warranted, but the way you described it seems like management, medication and training could help. It's not a guarantee that you won't have to consider BE down the line, but as long as you can keep yourself and others safe and you are able to afford it I definitely think that it's worth it to put in the effort.
I would also be very careful with managment and do muzzle training now so you have some protection until you can get good professional help.
If he has had very severe bites than BE could be warranted, but the way you described it seems like management, medication and training could help. It's not a guarantee that you won't have to consider BE down the line, but as long as you can keep yourself and others safe and you are able to afford it I definitely think that it's worth it to put in the effort.
madmoonsam
New member
@phyllis17 You should look into an actual credentialed behaviorist and continue r+ with long-term meds like Reconcile. Traz won’t cut it. BE is not your only option
roberthill1964
New member
@phyllis17 You definitely shouldn't rehome a dog with a bite history that doesn't warn people with growling, etc.
I think it would be worth it to look into a behaviorist. You can ask them if you think they can work with him and they can recommend different medications to try if they think he is a candidate. If you can't get to one, you may be able to ask them if there is any trainers or vets closer to you that they think may be helpful.
Until then, I would basket muzzle train. Accidents do happen. You can't control what other people do, but you can take as many precautions as you can to prevent further bites.
I think it would be worth it to look into a behaviorist. You can ask them if you think they can work with him and they can recommend different medications to try if they think he is a candidate. If you can't get to one, you may be able to ask them if there is any trainers or vets closer to you that they think may be helpful.
Until then, I would basket muzzle train. Accidents do happen. You can't control what other people do, but you can take as many precautions as you can to prevent further bites.
tecumsehmaverick
New member
@phyllis17 are you able to modify his environment to keep people safe? Redundant measures of security, kennel training and such.
if you are unable to or unwilling to, it could be the end option.
Things I suggest- kennel training. Kennel before opening the front door for any reason at any point. Cut off access to the entry way of you do not kennel when you're not home. muzzle training for when leaving the home. Kennel when guests are over, in a low stress room.
if you are unable to or unwilling to, it could be the end option.
Things I suggest- kennel training. Kennel before opening the front door for any reason at any point. Cut off access to the entry way of you do not kennel when you're not home. muzzle training for when leaving the home. Kennel when guests are over, in a low stress room.
@phyllis17 When it comes down to saving a dog from BE if at all possible, first of all start muzzle training. Please use a muzzle when out on walks, in the yard, etc. Then reasearch different training techniques on youtube I think theres a difference between harmful aversive and something like rattlesnake training, (piratethepitbull on instagram/yt had a look into how this is done.) Or using a can of air when a car passes so the dog learns oh gosh thats scary i will stop lunging at cars (and then all the praise!) I believe there is a difference aversive in terms of shock collars have always been sketchy to me. But if it's gentle aversive, where other things have failed? What do you have to lose if this is the last stop before BE. Take a look at what options are out there. Do some research and make sure the training isn't abusive, the trainer is certified, talk to a certified behaviorist. Generally exhaust your options before BE.
@phyllis17 Is that Tom Davies training place? Seen alot of his videos on youtube, seems to know his stuff. I would try there if you can afford it. Personaly I found the positive only stuff made my dog more aggressive. Working breeds often need clear boundries. Not sure where all this dont punish the barking and growling has come from in recent years. If a kid shouts at another kid and you do nothing, then they go and shove them and you do nothing. Dont be suprised when they start hitting them too. We dont punish fear responses but if a dog is choosing to act that way they need to know its not acceptable.
@sarahtoo You don’t punish growling because it will probably be super effective in getting the dog to stop growling, but if the dog still feels uncomfortable they will then feel the need to escalate their behaviors. Growls are communication. They are a polite “I don’t like that, please stop”.
I have a dog that didn’t growl, he would immediately bite. I spent a lot of time re-teaching him to growl and utilize communication. It’s not something you really appreciate until it’s gone.
I have a dog that didn’t growl, he would immediately bite. I spent a lot of time re-teaching him to growl and utilize communication. It’s not something you really appreciate until it’s gone.
@monk58 No they are not humans. Human children you can explain things to useing your verbal langauge skills that somthing is wrong. Then they can use their human brain to think about what you said. You can lecture your dog all day about ethics and they obviously wont have a clue what your talking about.
But Ok, enlighten me. How to you communicate to a dog a bahavior is unwanted without some form of punishment from operant conditioning?
But Ok, enlighten me. How to you communicate to a dog a bahavior is unwanted without some form of punishment from operant conditioning?
@sarahtoo I don't
I teach it an alternative response in different situations and condition it to do it reflexively
Even stop or down has been taught with an instructional command and the dog knows what I want it to do
I use body language rather than voice to add command. Old gamekeepers training when they needed to be silent. If you notice the best trained working dogs their trainers very very seldom ever say anything other than a clear positive instruction and tell the dog what they want it to do
So much clearer to a dog to teach it what you want it to do. The most negative I get is taking my dog back to a cushion say and telling it to settle and stay again. I don't do this in anything other than a positive voice and showing it the space again so it isn't really negative
It is my job to make what I do want vey clear to my dog... the actual positive actions, set them up to succeed at that through good management and capture and reward their success
Oddly enough it works. It just takes patience and a mind set shift
Give positive instructions
Once a dog is in a situation where it is over threshold like the reactive dogs we are talking about no learning is happening anyway. There is a strong possibility that any snapping them out of it type correction or trying to tell them the action si wrong doesn't land anyway and can be completely misinterpreted by the dog and ramp up stress because .. and it bears repeating that is a human logic link and human way of looking at actions
Children actually get that one.. if you shout at a child it can logically connect.. alas poor souls
Dogs don't
If I am using a slightlynegative approach it will be with my trainers guidance with a set up dog who will retreat if he doesn't manage to stay calm and check in
Not 100 percent sure we will use it yet. we need to discuss if it is appropriate
Again though this is focused on the action I do want from him (calm, focus and self control) and will be heavily rewarded in that moment
It is not focused on correcting what is "wrong"
I teach it an alternative response in different situations and condition it to do it reflexively
Even stop or down has been taught with an instructional command and the dog knows what I want it to do
I use body language rather than voice to add command. Old gamekeepers training when they needed to be silent. If you notice the best trained working dogs their trainers very very seldom ever say anything other than a clear positive instruction and tell the dog what they want it to do
So much clearer to a dog to teach it what you want it to do. The most negative I get is taking my dog back to a cushion say and telling it to settle and stay again. I don't do this in anything other than a positive voice and showing it the space again so it isn't really negative
It is my job to make what I do want vey clear to my dog... the actual positive actions, set them up to succeed at that through good management and capture and reward their success
Oddly enough it works. It just takes patience and a mind set shift
Give positive instructions
Once a dog is in a situation where it is over threshold like the reactive dogs we are talking about no learning is happening anyway. There is a strong possibility that any snapping them out of it type correction or trying to tell them the action si wrong doesn't land anyway and can be completely misinterpreted by the dog and ramp up stress because .. and it bears repeating that is a human logic link and human way of looking at actions
Children actually get that one.. if you shout at a child it can logically connect.. alas poor souls
Dogs don't
If I am using a slightlynegative approach it will be with my trainers guidance with a set up dog who will retreat if he doesn't manage to stay calm and check in
Not 100 percent sure we will use it yet. we need to discuss if it is appropriate
Again though this is focused on the action I do want from him (calm, focus and self control) and will be heavily rewarded in that moment
It is not focused on correcting what is "wrong"
@sarahtoo You can comnunicate to a dog not to do something without "correcting" them using pain or fear. If a dog has problem behaviours suppressing them using fear of pain isn't addressing the behaviour, just patching it until the pressure builds up and they blow up even worse, or just making your dog live in fear of you and their triggers which isn't fair. I've had a read of your most recent comment about your puppy and you're just making him frightened to do normal puppy behaviours which is cruel. It's like hurting a toddler for throwing something or hitting you during a tantrum
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