How much training is undone by practicing bad behaviors?

[confundido]

I don't understand why my training isn't working. So many guides and trainers say "follow this training consistently and you'll see results in 2-3 weeks for most dogs, but some dogs may take months". Well it's been at least 6 months of consistent training with no results, he's possibly even gotten worse.

The only thing I can think of is either he's unlearning his good behaviours at daycare (once a week) or he's being allowed to bark too much when he's home with my girlfriend (2 days a week).

Could this be undoing all my training?

Other info:

German Spitz, 1 year 9 months old, Male (nuetered)

We've done about 8 sessions with 2 different behaviourists who have suggested similar things but haven't seen the progress they were hoping for. To be honest, dog behavourists seem to be terrible at coming up with a training plan, they just throw vague advice that I mostly know already. I just started the Kikopup leash walking connected course as that is partly focused on reactivity/anxiety and has a really nice 6 week structured course with daily activities.

Behaviours:

Barking at cars, people, sounds, dogs he hears outside (when he's inside)

Barking at guests that enter the house

Barking at dogs, some people, bikes, and motorbikes on walks

Training:

Sound desensitisation once or twice a day for 5-10 minutes, followed by 2 minute massage and then play.

Treat whenever he hears a scary noise (counter-conditioning)

"Go to crate" if really triggered / not taking treat

Treating whenever he's relaxing around the house

Lots of games and enrichment to build confidence and raise serotonin

Management:

Blinds closed most of the time

Music or white noise playing when home (girlfriend doesn't want noise on all the time e.g. when we're out because he wont learn to ignore sounds - is this a valid concern?)

Guests are instructed to avoid eye contact and drop treats when entering the house, dog redirected to toy or snuffle mat if possible

Decompression walks only in quiet places - no other dogs or people

Medication:

He's been on fluoxetine for 8 weeks which has made little to no difference except he's lost his appetite - making training more difficult as he doesn't like treats as much. Upping the dose so hopefully this has some impact

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@confundido I would be revisiting meds, ineffective meds could be making it harder for your dog to think and learn.

 

[confundido]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Yeah if increasing the dose doesn’t work we’ll have to look at alternatives

 

[kingdomkey]

@imagebeastmarkbeast My dog has a breakthrough when he was started on gabapentin in addition to the fluoxetine he’d been on for years.

I talked to my psychiatrist about this, and he mentioned that in people gabapentin seems to slow down thinking, almost like people physically can’t get those anxious, racing thoughts. (He also said that a few times he’s weaned down people from too much gabapentin and they get noticeably more intelligent lol)

 

[prophetictimes]

@confundido For barking at things outside, you might try the "thank you" method - when the dog alerts, go with them to see whatever is setting them off, then say "thank you" and feed treats and call.them away for more treats.

It feels like that might reinforce the barking, but what it actually does is help to shift.the barking behavior from an instinctive, uncontrolled reaction, to one where the dog is making a conscious choice to alert. Then you can also train "quiet" and ask for that, or in our case I trained "they're allowed" as a keyword for the dog to stop freaking out about strangers. Dog barks; I go to the window, say "theyre allowed, thank you" then take the dog to the kitchen for cheese. It's really the quiet retreat that's being reinforced, though I started with showers of cheese while at the window.

This has hugely reduced alert barking for us and Ive been able to generalize the "allowed" keyword to other situations where I want the dog to stop panicking about strangers.

 

[confundido]

@prophetictimes I did start doing this but didn’t see any improvement, how long till you saw results?

 

[prophetictimes]

@confundido So it doesn't work right away, but it's important that you actually go to the window and see what they're looking at. Otherwise they know that the alert isn't being heard. If it's alert barking (mid pitched, sharp and repetitive) it's meant to communicate to other family members so you have to make sure they feel like it's working.

It works better if the thank you is followed by a "positive interruptor" - something which structurally disrupts the barking. I pretend it's a reward for telling me about the threat and reward them as of they've done something great.

Methods I've used:
- dropping a handful of shredded cheese after the "thank you"

• calling only one of the dogs to the kitchen for cheese (nothing summons both like calling one, lol)
• yelling "hey let's go for a walk!"
• throwing a ball elsewhere
• if nothing else works, physically stepping in front of the window and herding the dog away, then taking them off for treats

If it's not alert barking - if it's deep throated warning barks - then I usually just sit with the dog and peacefully feed them high value treats until they stop being worried about the thing. That kind of barking is motivated by a sense of threat and it's meant to scare off the object of the bark. I still want to use a positive interruptor where possible, but also doing some positive counterconditioning on the threat is helpful.

That's what I used to train "they're allowed" - when my dog is threat barking out the window, I sit with her, watch the invaders, and give her super high value treats while telling her "it's cool, they're allowed". Now just the act of putting a hand on her collar and saying "they're allowed" often works by itself. It's still counter-conditioning just using the window barking as a target and adding a keyword.

When I do the latter kind of intervention I literally feed a piece of cheese every 2 seconds until the barking stops, and then keep doing it. It's a LOT of treats so cut down regular food accordingly.

With either intervention you should see SOME kind of positive response within a few days, even if it's not huge - if not, it's not resonating.

If they can't eat, you need to block the view from the window or find some other way to lower the emotional pitch, like maybe starting first with things further away.

My two nutjobs managed to keep their peace through two weeks of active workers coming into and around our house this month, which would have been out of the question previously.

 

[pazuzil]

@confundido I have a Keeshond, one of the larger German spitzes. Most German spitz varieties are barkers, alert and guard barking is literally what they were bred to do so you’ll never probably have a quiet dog. It’s like asking a herding breed not to herd. My dog is about the same age as your dog and his barking intensified around 8-9 months old when he hit puberty.

Day care does have a tendency to normalize some bad behaviors, barking is one. Since nuisance barking is one of the biggest issues we deal with, every trainer I’ve worked with has been ani-daycare for his bad habits. You’re also probably going have to adjust your expectations. 6 months is no time at all when you’re dealing with a trait that is deeply part of the breed.

Completely losing his mind when someone comes to the door is one of the biggest struggles we have. The way I’m working on it my dog is by putting treats in my mailbox and inviting friends over. They ring the doorbell and I don’t answer the door until he calms down. Sometimes it takes 5+ minutes. Then he’s not allowed out until he sits, he’s not allowed to have a treat until he stops barking. Pronounced breaks in barking get a treat and I’ve started using a clicker. I’ve been trying to do this once a day most days.

All the other things you’ve listed on here are triggers for my dog too. It took me about a year of walks everyday to get him to the point where he only casually reacts to other dogs and people on walks. I still carry treats, we still do LAT and 1,2,3 when he gets wound up. There are a couple other people where we walk working on the same thing so we work together sometimes. At this point he only barks when we formally stop and someone talks to him. Inside the house I am now able to call him and have him come to me, give treats for come, give treats for quiet. This also took close to a year to be consistent with. After working on it for close to a year and a half he now does it for close friends and my mom as well.

I’m not a professional so I have no idea how much of what you are dealing with is actual anxiety and how much are breed traits. If you are dealing with the second then medicating isn’t going to get rid of the instinct to bark. You’re also still dealing with a really young dog, and in my experience with spitz breeds in general they’re closer to 3 before they become more chill, but they will generally always be barkers more than the average dog. So my advice would be continue to work on it everyday, it’s potentially going to be a lifelong issue, find a pattern that works for you and stick with it. Everyone in your environment should be doing the same. Reevaluate environmental spaces that hurt training success. I would find an IABBC certified behaviorist, or someone with similar certifications, and have a consult. Get their advice on what may be anxiety and what may be breed specific reactions.

 

[confundido]

@pazuzil Thanks for the info, sounds like you’re in a similar boat! Can you explain LAT and 1,2,3? I think I just need to keep consistent and persistent.

 

[childman]

@pazuzil

Most German spitz varieties are barkers, alert and guard barking is literally what they were bred to do so you’ll never probably have a quiet dog. It’s like asking a herding breed not to herd.

That was my first thought. My family had a couple of Shelties growing up that were similar in the way they loved to hear themselves talk.

OP, I think you are doing everything right but I wonder if maybe you need to adjust expectations and figure out how you can best manage the situation right now as you're likely fighting genetics so any real change is going to take quite a while and there will probably be a lot of compromise along the way. I'm pretty wary of anyone who will promise results within a certain timeframe, since what is achievable and how long it takes will vary wildly from dog to dog.

 

[confundido]

@childman Yeah I guess I just have no idea of how long things should take to work because the range is 2 weeks to 10 years. How do I know I’m in the right path if there’s no measurable results? My expectation is that I will see some results eventually. But if something takes years to get better, who’s to say it was the training that did it? Maybe the dog just got better? I’m going to stick with training anyway, it’s just hard when you have no idea if all that effort is worth it.

 

[donica]

@confundido Are you using high enough value treats? My dog out and out spits out some treats or refuses to take stuff. She can’t say no to hot dog or cheese most of the time. High value treats make a huge difference in effectiveness of training and desensitization. I still have to give my dog bread instead of regular treats for some sounds. You should be using the treats they are addicts to.

Turning off white noise when you leave doesn’t help train your dog to ignore more while your gone. There’s no training happening there since dogs don’t self train and barking until a noise leaves could be reinforcing the behaviors. (But not all dogs do this.) A camera could confirm or disprove this problem and are usually only $60 ish. If every time you leave, they bark away sounds it could be part of your problem.

Generally 1 day a week versus 6 good ones shouldn’t cause too much of a step back. The 2 days a week could be a problem but generally if your dog acts differently with your gf would be a bigger indicator. It seem unlikely to be the cause since you say training with you isn’t wildly better. (As you would expect if one partner follows rules and the other doesn’t.)

I tend to think the lack of a good treat is much more likely.

 

[confundido]

@donica High value treats during desensitisation? I use lamb lung or freeze dried salmon which he loves. Chicken is probably his favourite so maybe I should use that more.

Yeah I think we need to leave white noise or radio on all the time to drown outside noise. Will try this.