How long to wait between litters?

[thelonemusician28]

Just because I’m this nosey...
I don’t breed, but would eventually like to. I already have my own game plan on how to generally go about it. Will start breeding dams at 2 years old, at least a year between each litter, retire breeding at 5 years old, no more than 3-4 litters each.
My friend is currently breeding, and says she’s giving her dam breaks between litters (has had two so far), but between those and when she plans to breed again it’ll be 5 months between each of them. I was under the impression that best practice is to have at least a 9 month buffer for Dam to heal and get her hormones back in balance. What say you?

ps- have only ever done research on brachycephalic breeds and hers are a working breed

 

[preciousleslee]

@thelonemusician28 Uterine lining gets weaker as the dogs age, meaning csections are more likely the longer you wait. However breeding a bitch that isn’t fully recovered physically from her last litter is also very high risk

At the end of the day, it’s a dog by dog basis that needs to be discussed with your regular veterinarian and/or reproduction specialist

 

[thelonemusician28]

@preciousleslee Just because this is the second comment I’ve seen suggesting to talk to a vet about this, is there no general rule of thumb how long it takes for a dam to recover from a previous litter?

 

[preciousleslee]

@thelonemusician28 Nah there isn’t. There are very few things in breeding that are a “good rule of thumb”. You don’t know until you’re looking at the female in question. Some girls recover slower. Some are better off if you breed them back to back so you can retire them early. Some are in between.

It’s not possible to even think about how many litters you’d want off a particular girl until you’re looking at her first litter of puppies. Let alone how long you intend on waiting between litters. There’s too many factors for anyone to judge timing on, except the breeder and their veterinarian.

Also, There are other important things that contribute to when it’s responsible to be breeding a girl and how much time is between litters. Stud availability and waiting lists being a huge portion of that. Also, purpose of the breeding matters, and that can change with time. If you got a wonderful replacement puppy from the females first litter, there’s usually not much of a reason to breed her a second time anyway. Again, you don’t know until you’re looking at the female and her current litter what any of your plans are.

 

[youcanjustcallmedory]

@thelonemusician28 At it's core, this is a medical question you should be asking your vet about. Or take it a step up and bring peer reviewed research to them, about this topic and talk about your conclusions with them.

Your gonna get plenty of advice from many breeders, saying this is what works for me and my bitches, but this can vary by breed and individual tolerance.

 

[thelonemusician28]

@youcanjustcallmedory Thank you for your advice!

I don’t think it’s necessary to really ask a veterinarian, one because I’m just asking to confirm what I think is true, and two because in my experience veterinarians will often give advice based off their opinions as well instead of strictly based off research. Plus the ones in my area don’t really deal with many show dogs/reputable Breeders.

If she breeds her for the fourth time with only a 5 month break I’ll ask her about it, but she’s not really one to accept advice, especially since I don’t actually breed (just know general/clinically about breeding bulldog breeds).

I was hoping someone would be able to tell me the general rule of this when it comes to the best health practice of the dam, and if it’s the same amount of time across the board or if different breeds take longer to level out after having a litter

 

[youcanjustcallmedory]

@thelonemusician28

Plus the ones in my area don't really deal with many show dogs/reputable breeders.

So you don't trust them. Maybe find one that you do trust, that does consults via online?

 

[thelonemusician28]

@youcanjustcallmedory I don’t trust them. I trust some of them, but not in the specific question I’m looking for. When I get to the point of purchasing puppy to eventually breed, I’ll get established with one that I’ve heard very good things about for the breed I’m interested in. But when it comes to general care for csecs and emergencies, there are a handful I fully trust

 

[girlingrace]

@thelonemusician28 I genuinely concerns me that you are talking in blanket terms breeding and it sounds like you are planning on breeding in large scale. You cannot put an arbitrary age on breeding and then subsequent litters. Reputable breeders look at their animals and use their knowledge, experience, and consultation with their vet to determine whether a bitch should be bred again.

You also need to look at the code of ethics of your controlling organisation (AKC, ANKC, KC, etc). Ours doesn't permit my breed to be bred until 18 months of age (I won't breed before 2), and we can do one back to back mating, but then must wait 18 months before the next mating. There is also a maximum number of litters and a maximum age. It's not about making the most number of puppies possible, it is what is best for the bitch and the puppies.

 

[thelonemusician28]

@girlingrace I’m not sure if you’ve read my post thoroughly.

For one, I don’t have dogs even to breed yet. I plan on waiting for as much info as possible, consulting and finding a mentor that’s in the show ring that I want to be in, then wait as long as it takes to find a girl I feel would be a good quality dam.

For two, depends on what you consider “large scale”. I know a breeder/show owner with 11 dogs (male and female) and most of them breed. I plan on only having one male and 3-4 females. Probably three. They would be at different ages, only one dam having her litter at a time, each one having proper testing done before hand, and they come first. If one of them has a bad pregnancy and experience then she no longer gets bred and I will be down to two dams, won’t get another. If I can’t get the puppies sold, I stop breeding all together.

For three, I’m only asking in blanket terms of how long the healing process is. Obviously it differs per dog, but I was expecting it to be a simple answer “9-12 months but some may be sooner, some longer”. We know people take about 6-8 weeks to recover from a vaginal birth, some sooner, some longer, but we know the general rule of thumb, why is it so crazy to think we would have something like that for canines too?

 

[girlingrace]

@thelonemusician28 Some bitches cycle every six months, some nine, some twelve, and everywhere in between. My bitches generally are in the 8-9 month range, and being sporting dogs, are very fit and a breed that usually whelps naturally. My girls are generally back to fit by the time the pups leave, so a back to back would not be a big deal to them. A breed where csections are more common, or a bitch that is not so fit will have a longer recovery period, and if she cycles every six months, may not be as good of a candidate for a back to back mating.

 

[thelonemusician28]

@girlingrace I think that might be where people are being confused with my question. I’m asking about her body and blood work and other factors that determine her being ready to handle another pregnancy. I understand that may differ, but there has to be some sort of guideline. Such as small dogs with heats that are every 4 months, I’m sure their bodies aren’t prepared to carry/deliver another healthy pregnancy or care for more puppies just yet even though she has had her heat. I understand that the last pregnancy has a lot to do with it, but I’m referring to healthy pregnancies, the average and standard pregnancy.

I feel it’s almost like saying you never know the personality of the breed of dog you’re going to get because they are their individual dogs with their individual personalities. However we are still able to determine the general personality type you’d get with specific breeds although some may differ slightly, and few may be completely different if that makes sense

 

[dukedesu]

@thelonemusician28 Back to back is best for uterine health assuming the bitch bounces back. However, that is not necessarily the best choice for the breed (better to watch the litter grow up) or for the owner of the bitch (sometimes we need a break too). There’s a lot of variability in this.

 

[akilah]

@thelonemusician28 The research says you do back to back. This was done off of studies of bitches uteruses (I think beagles) after litters and spays and times.

Personally, I don't see how someone would do it. I have a 3 week old litter on the ground. I am keeping pups from this as I do each litter. I couldn't imagine having them back to back and get everyone raised properly. My girl is 2 and a half and I will probably try for a second litter in twoish years once these puppies are up and starting to make their mark. I already selected the male and am in negations to get frozen semen so I can use it when ready. If not on her it will also be a good pairing for her daughter.

 

[treesd]

@thelonemusician28 Interestingly, and there are articles to support this, the AKC and several college that are the top Veterinary Studies (that usually have hospitals like CSU) have been studying uterus’s of bitches that have been removed after they have beed bred and then retired. They studied ones from bitches bred back to back and bitches every other heat cycle. What they have been learning is that it actually seems safer/better for the bitch to breed back to back rather than every other cycle. It is a controversial topic and a personal choice. However, I have spoken with my vet (they work with CSU) and they did not have a problem with back to back. My bitch has had multiple health checks since her last litter and is in great health. If you’d like article links of the studies please message me and I’d be glad to provide them.

 

[thelonemusician28]

@treesd I’ve seen articles (granted not directly from a university hospital) where it says that it’s better for the uterus, but not necessarily for the dam.

I could very well be wrong, but I could’ve sworn that there are certain periods of time before the dams regular body levels reach normality again (such as platelets, blood pressure, iron, calcium, etc) but I could also be wrong with how long that actually takes.

Also- not knocking anyone who does this method of breeding responsibly- but I also feel like doing pregnancies/litters back to back may be harder on the dams body, such as joints, ligaments, and maybe even bones. But again, I could very well be wrong

 

[treesd]

@thelonemusician28 Well, I guess that’s why I said it’s up to the breeder and the vet. It is a controversial topic for sure. My vet works very closely with CSU Vet Hospital. My Precious has been seen by my vet multiple times since her last litter for postnatal and last visit I was given the green light. It was a question I specifically asked, we went over, and she was in great shape and good to go. I do not plan on her breeding long, however. Some ppl breed right up to or past the age of 6. I do not intend to breed her long at all. I plan to get another dam soon so she will be ready in about two years.