E-collar correction

[skilletboy]

My dog kept getting into things (trash, food, couch) whenever I would leave the house but not when I was present. My trainer said to use an internet camera and correct whenever he would get into the trash and that’s exactly what I did. However, I don’t think my level is high enough. He’s a smaller dog so I don’t wanna go any higher. I’ve been correcting him on a level 25 on the educator e-collar and he lets out a yelp but he is continuing to do it. Can I safely go higher? Can an e-collar kill a dog? My next session is in 1 week since my trainer is on vacation.

 

[be4christ]

@skilletboy It's going to be easier to change his access to the environment. With my dogs, access to free movement in different parts of the house unsupervised happens when they've demonstrated they can handle that access safely. I still dog proof -- garbage is always away.

At this point your dog has had a lot of practice self-reinforcing by getting into the trash, counters etc.. That's part of why the correction isn't working -- his reinforcement history is just a lot longer, which is how some dogs learn to endure a correction and then carry on business as usual. He needs to stop having the opportunity to practice these behaviours more than he needs a more intense correction.

 

[ace111]

@be4christ Best answer! If the dog is already yelping, the correction hurts and the stim level is too high. A correction should never really hurt, just be uncomfortable. If that doesn’t stop the dog, stop correcting and set the dog up for success.

Another thing that OP could try is sound aversion. I‘ve seen this in a Victoria Stilwell video. She used an aircan and later speakers to play the sound remotely. The dog was set up to fail, with several „traps“ (food) lying around. Whenever she saw the dog come close to the food (in person and on camera), she would trigger an airhorn sound. Worked a charm with that dog, and while a loud sound may startle the dog, it doesn’t really hurt the dog like an high e-collar stim would.

 

[selvatori]

@ace111 While I see your point I have to disagree to an extent. He’s not correcting the dog he is trying to punish the dog which won’t work because he’s not stopping the progression. As you alluded to the dog is reinforcing his own behaviors already and powering through the E. Additionally, since it’s an unwanted and potentially dangerous behavior (ingesting something harmful from the trash) he should be using the E at a safe emergency level where the dog will not want to mess with the trash again. There is a lot to unpack with this and without knowing more we are left to guess. Setting the dog up to fail is using prevention over correction without really knowing what the dogs intent or actions actually are. For example do I correct/ punish my dog for looking at the steak on the counter, when he takes his first bite of the steak, or after he’s already finished it off. If I correct or punish him simply for looking at the steak without knowing what he was actually going to do we are creating a situation where the dog could end up in a learned helplessness state of mind. Hope that makes sense.

 

[johnsonnick365]

@skilletboy I don't think trying to train your dog to not go for the trash can in hopes for the pup to not get into it when you are away is the most efficient manner. I don't even know if it'll work because the dog will know when you are gone and then go back to normal routine. That's what my dog did.

Instead, I created a safer environment. My dog would regularly get into the trash when I leave but rarely at night. Eventually he ingested something and that cost me $500 to ensure he was ok (everything passed thankfully). After that I took it very seriously.

The solution is not to train the dog, rather form your environment or make temporary alterations to it when you leave. So if you don't want to buy a new trash can you can always take the bin and move it behind a closed door before you leave. That's what I used to do but I found it better to buy a new trash can (check out the metal SimpleHuman trashcans. Stuff is expensive but the moment I bought it my dog has not been interested in it whatsoever. I think the lid is better at sealing in scents).

If you still struggle, your best bet is to crate train and crate your dog. Then slowly increase access when your dog proves to you that it can stay alone without creating a mess. Just like a kiddo, you test the waters over time and give more freedom. I used to crate my dog but he hated it and would try to escape. Then I put him in a bathroom, then a spare bedroom, now he has the living room with the other doors closed.

 

[eve_marie]

@johnsonnick365

I don't even know if it'll work because the dog will know when you are gone and then go back to normal routine. That's what my dog did.

That's what the camera is for. The dog needs to associate the act itself of getting in the garbage with the correction, not your presence. What your dog did is irrelevant.

Eventually he ingested something and that cost me $500 to ensure he was ok (everything passed thankfully). After that I took it very seriously.

Which is why you address these issues before something like this, or even worse, happens. If your dog had have died, would you have taken solace in, "at least I didn't correct him"? You shouldn't be waiting for an emergency to take a very predictable outcome seriously.

The solution is not to train the dog, rather form your environment or make temporary alterations to it when you leave.

There you have it, folks. The new solution to a training question in Open Dog Training is to not train the dog. Fucking brilliant. Pack it up. We can all go home now.

 

[kyredneck]

@eve_marie I am a professional and expert human trainer and it is widely known and accepted that not all human performance gaps are best addressed by training. In fact, some cannot be addressed by training.

While I am not a professional or expert dog trainer, I can certainly imagine that some dog behaviors are not best addressed by training.

It would seem to me that moving the garbage to where the dog cannot access it would likely be one of them.

 

[jaenalyn]

@kyredneck

It would seem to me that moving the garbage to where the dog cannot access it would likely be one of them.

It isn't. "Managing" a problem like trash-eating has to be 100% perfect, and a simple mistake could mean death or serious illness for the dog. I share the other poster's frustration as this is a question they gets asked here often, with dozens of responses bleating out the same thing, "manage the problem." What's frustrating is that this is a very simple problem to solve, permanently. The "experts" who post here can tell you 20 different types of reinforcement marker and their favorite celebrity trainer's preferred flavor of pie, but they can't tell you how to fix a simple problem like trash-eating. Extremely telling about the state of modern dog training.

 

[kalebsanders007]

@jaenalyn It really isn’t that complicated.

Dogs are opportunistic scavengers. Literally in its nature to scavenge. and you expect dogs to go against thousands of years of evolution? Not going to happen.

But we evolved to be smarter than dogs. We have thumbs, we have bigger brains capable of foresight. If you don’t want the dog to eat trash, put it away. How about taking a some personal responsibility? Dog is gonna dog.

Believe me I had the biggest scavenger in my house for 12 years. I kept my trash in a locked bin in a pantry because my dog would get into it if I wasn’t home.

What do you propose instead of management? What is your training plan?

 

[jaenalyn]

@kalebsanders007 Are you trainer for-hire? As in, people give you money to help them train their dogs? Because this is exactly the type of answer I would expect to hear from a trainer at the end of their competency, and is entirely indicative of the problem with this sub. Regular dog owners don't go inventing complex explanations for why it's impossible to teach a dog not to bother the trash, they look for solutions. And when they're looking for solutions, they expect to find a competent professional who can help them fix the problem, rather than talk down to them about something entirely unrelated like personal responsibility.

I'm not really going to address your comments about, "literally in its nature to scavenge," and I'm not "proposing" anything as if I were coming up with some novel way of addressing the problem. OP's trainer has a rough idea of what to do, but they're using clumsy equipment. You can read my suggestions for improvement elsewhere in the thread. Trash-breaking is a remarkably simple procedure that relies on instincts and physiologies which vastly predate the dog's evolutionary history as a scavenger and in no way contradict it. How long will a scavenger survive who fails to learn the lessons the first time that (1.) scorpions sting, and (2.) that particular section of the dump is infested with scorpions? Not long. No lecturing necessary.

 

[kyredneck]

@jaenalyn I am a regular dog owner, and I would never pay a trainer to train my dog to stay out of the trash. I'd take responsibility to keep the trash out of her reach.

I have a problem with trainers who think the answer to every single issue is for people to fork out money to pay for a trainer. Sometimes it's necessary and should be done. Not every time. Put your trash away. Not hard. Nor expensive. No "expertise " required.

 

[jaenalyn]

@kyredneck Great, you don't mind having a dog that eats trash. Nobody's forcing you to hire a dog trainer, and some people have higher standards or lower risk tolerances than you do. What the fuck is your "problem" with the way I make a living?

 

[kyredneck]

@jaenalyn I have 3 dogs. None of them eat trash, and all of them have a solid leave it. I do not feel they are in a high-risk situation.

I don't have any problem at all with the way you make a living. Trainers are needed. What rubs me the wrong way (not with you in specific, just in general) is the number of times it is implied that if a person has a behavior they would like to address and they haven't hired a trainer, they are somehow negligent. Not all problems require training, and not all training requires a paid professional. I get that it's your livelihood, so you disagree.

I really have nothing against anything you said, except "some people have higher standards." Which is basically you saying I have low standards for the well-being of my dogs. You have no idea what my standards are, and I put that statement in the bucket with "if you haven't hired a trainer, you are negligent."

 

[jaenalyn]

@kyredneck People who don't train their dogs are negligent. Someone who gets a dog without knowing how to train it or expects to just intuitively figure it out along the way is irresponsible. If someone has a dog and finds they have an urgent behavior problem that they are not equipped to address, they should hire a professional. I've worked in several trades and this is the only one where people expect to get free advice and work out of professionals who have sacrificed and dedicated their lives or helping dogs, and as someone who took that path it's pretty insulting when people expect you to work for free or who ignorantly try to explain that commonplace things you do every day are impossible.

 

[kyredneck]

@jaenalyn You do not advocate dog proofing your home? That is a serious question.

 

[jaenalyn]

@kyredneck Proofing your house for your dog and your dog for your house are both useful. Faced with the choice between the two, I will take the house-proofed dog over the dog-proofed house

 

[kyredneck]

@jaenalyn Fair enough. Though in either regard, you cannot anticipate every possibility.

I grew up in a household in which garbage was never left where animals could get to it. The idea that people have unsecured garbage in the same space as pets doesn't even compute for me.

 

[jaenalyn]

@kyredneck I think the problem is that you're thinking of trash-eating as this singular issue when in reality it's a symptom of a greater problem - the dog touches things that don't belong to him. Whether the dog is eating the trash or his bed or toys or any inappropriate object, the fix is pretty much the same. The fact is that dogs live in a world surrounded by inappropriate chewing items, and unless you expect to keep them in a padded room 24/7 they're going to be tempted at some point.

 

[mischathepuppy]

@skilletboy Put your crap away (garbage, food, etc) and crate train your dog.

You are the problem, not your dog.

 

[davecb]

@skilletboy I don't understand correcting a dog when you're not there.

Unless you're just going to watch the camera 100% of the time, and literally do nothing else, this is a pointless exercise.

You will wind up correcting the dog after the fact, so the correction is not tied to what he did.

Put stuff away, don't leave it so the dog can get into it, and accept the fact that in your house, your dog will be on your couch when you're not home and oh well.