Decided trying giving Taste of the Wild to my labrador, some clarifications?

[bonjala]

Hello. My almost-4 year old chocolate labrador has been eating Pro Pac food for most of his life. Frankly, he had rather frequent bouts of diarrhea and vomiting when he was younger, but he still ate the food easily (he's an ever-hungry lab).

Though he doesn't really have diarrhea nowadays and only rarely vomits, for the past ~half-a-year he's been making some issues with the Lamb and Brown Rice Pro Pac, being reluctant each time but eventually eating it. My father wanted to stick to this brand, so after a bunch of discussions he thought we should try giving him the Chicken and Brown Rice Pro Pac.

The results are the same — he doesn't really want to eat this food, and only after 30 minutes or so of going back and forth to the bowl he "concedes" and agrees to eat it. At first pouring the kibbles onto the floor made him eat it right up, as if he just didn't like the bowl (I cleaned it thoroughly in case something smelled off to him), but now even that doesn't work.

I asked about this the (new) vet during a recent visit, also mentioning he has a pretty bad breath even for a dog. He said I could try switching to a fish-based formula.

So here's how I arrived at Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream... The two aforementioned tastes of Pro Pac both actually contain whitefish meal as an ingredient. At first I thought of trying the whitefish Pro Pac, but after reading many dog foods made with fish meal also contain ethoxyquin, which Pro Pac doesn't state is absent from their ingredients anywhere on their site, I thought perhaps it's one chemical making my dog feel bad about their food and thus buying their actual whitefish formula would be even worse for him.

So no brand seemed free of at least some bad reviews, but on Taste of the Wild's website they specifically mention their products are guaranteed free of ethoxyquin. Also, the first ingredient in their Pacific Stream is "Salmon" rather than "x-meal", and "only the second" is "ocean fish meal", so I thought this presents a higher quality.

I received the bag today and tried giving him some. His reaction was kind of the same as with the Pro Pac — he didn't really want to eat it either from his bowl or from the floor, but he did eat it from my hand (which also happens with the Pro Pac... sigh). I didn't intend on giving him a whole bowl of the new food right away anyway, so I gave him his Pro Pac after this "test".

Thing is, a. The ingredient list on the bag is much shorter than on their website, and some vitamins (no B vitamins mentioned, perhaps some other chemicals which could be regarded as "vitamins") are not mentioned on the bag at all; I think the "Trace Elements" list might not be completely identical as well.

b. I've just read after looking in their website that there's been a recent report by the FDA of overly-represented cases of some canine heart condition (DCM) in dogs eating a grain-free diet (or a perhaps legume-containing diet), with Tatse of the Wild being the third most commonly-fed brand among the dogs in the report.

So what do you think is with the truncated ingredient and nutrient list on my bag? It's possibly written differently as it's made for export and everything is translated into a bunch of different languages, but not writing down nutritional essentials you hope ARE in the formula seems strange.

And with the possible relation to DCM? On the company's website in this regard they say they are committed to your pet's health and that so far the FDA report hasn't made any scientific link between any diet and this disease, and while they do add taurine (of which a deficiency is implicated in DCM) to their formula, I read reduced plasma levels of taurine might be due to excessive legumes in the dog's diet rather than due to too-little taurine in their food.

So what are your recommendations? Do you think there might be something wrong with this product, and more specifically with the bag I've received? Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Adding a photo of the ingredient list on the bag I got.

https://i.imgur.com/EavNXhB.jpg

 

[servadac]

@bonjala

the first ingredient in their Pacific Stream is "Salmon" rather than "x-meal", and "only the second" is "ocean fish meal", so I thought this presents a higher quality.

I wanted to point this out first: "So a diet with chicken (70% water) as the first ingredient may have less actual chicken than a diet that has chicken meal (< 10% moisture) as the second or third ingredient." https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2016/06/why-you-shouldnt-judge-a-pet-food-by-its-ingredient-list/

As for the difference in the ingredient list online and on the website: I'm not entirely sure. It could be there's a new formula that's not reflected online for whatever reason, or there's a new formula that is shown online and you got a bag from before the formula change.

Also, this is an interesting read related to ethoxyquin: https://news.vet.tufts.edu/2016/12/dear-doctor-preservatives-in-pet-food/

And according to this FDA regulation, Ethoxyquin must be specified if used: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=573.380

In general, I always recommend people use this tool from the WSAVA Global Nutrition Committee to aid in their selection of dog food: https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2016/12/questions-you-should-be-asking-about-your-pets-food/

The brands I know that meet these guidelines are Purina, Hill's SD, Royal Canin, Eukanuba, and Iams. In light of the DCM issues, I want to first note that added taurine does not seem to be effective as dogs diagnosed with nutritional DCM more often than not have normal levels of Taurine. Second, it is recommended first to avoid grain-free and second to stick with trial tested dog foods. The grain-free aspect being the main recommendation that applies to the above mentioned brands as well.

As for your dog's bad breath, switching to a fish formula is not a recommendation I've ever heard of. I'm not going to argue against a vet, but personally I'd be getting a second opinion. Mostly because very bad breath is often a sign of a dental issue which can cause more problems if left unsolved.

A reminder that most dog food companies are quick to answer questions and provide information on their formulas... Or, at least they should be doing that.

 

[bonjala]

@servadac I understood that x-meal is more concentrated, but at least specifically with fish meal there seems to be the issue of possible ethoxyquin presence, as it is traditionally required for the preservation of this type of meal but not for others. I didn't read that it's required by companies to state if it's present. I rather read that I company may state "no ethoxyquin added" if THEY didn't add the chemical when creating the pet food at their factory, but that it still may be present in fish meal bought as an ingredient from another source (a situation at which they're supposedly not obliged to mention it).

In regards to the ingredient list, either option would be strange as not writing included nutrients doesn't make sense, and actually not including all these vitamins must be dangerous to your dog.

In regards to his bad breath recommendation, the vet checked his teeth and said they're fine. That's why he said it sometimes happens due the dog's stomach reaction to the specific food.

 

[servadac]

@bonjala

as it is traditionally required for the preservation of this type of meal but not for others

Only when the fish is coming to land by boat. Farmed fish doesn't need it.

I didn't read that it's required by companies to state if it's present.

The FDA report states that it should be labeled. However, you could contact the companies about their fish source and use of preservatives.

either option would be strange as not writing included nutrients doesn't make sense, and actually not including all these vitamins must be dangerous to your dog.

What does the guarantee analysis state? That's what you need to check. Dogs can get vitamins from other sources. And, again, you'd have to contact the company if you're still not sure. I don't really know TotW, but if you're this concerned I wouldn't continue to feed it.

For the bad breath, that makes sense. That's why I wasn't sure. I thought fish was a funny choice since that's often considered to give dogs fishy breath.

Also, I did read earlier that they mostly found low levels of taurine in the reported cases, but now looking at the FDA website I didn't find such a specific deceleration.

"In our hospital, we currently measure taurine in all dogs with DCM, but more than 90% of our patients with DCM in which taurine has been measured have normal levels" https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/11/dcm-update/

Currently the main recommendation is to avoid grain free, with a specific look at legumes and potatoes. Some formulas do have peas listed, but the concern really is the formulas that have multiple legumes and/or potatoes.

OK, another weird information that kind of contradicts itself

I don't know what you mean by that contradicting itself. You don't have to guess if it's "probably" high on fiber you can check the guarneteed analysis for that information.

As for the common ingredients, well, yes, they're going to be represented more because they're fed more. Chicken is included in many diets, even ones that aren't labeled as chicken based. What should be considered is the ratio. What's the ratio of dogs eating chicken and dogs who developed DCM eating chicken? What's the ratio of dogs eating Boar and dogs who developed DCM eating boar?

I think it's particularly interesting that Kangaroo shows up more than beef, where Kangaroo is a much more uncommon protein compared to beef.

Again, the main recommendation at this point is to avoid grain free. The WSAVA guidelines have been recommended as a way to pick a diet since before we learned about nutritional DCM. I err on the side of caution when picking my dog's food and recommending food.

 

[bonjala]

@servadac About ethoxyquin, as I said, I read earlier it only needs to be labeled as present if it was added by the manufacturer of the dog food product. Supposedly, if the ingredients include fish meal produced by another factory (which is probably always the case when there's fish meal), that fish meal might contain ethoxyquin but it won't be required to state this for the final dog food product. Sounds senseless but some technicalities which are absolutely stupid occasionally exist.

As I said about the vitamins — what's written on the company's website includes more nutrients that aren't mentioned at all on the bag I have, so reading there doesn't help me understand whether the bag I bought still contains all of these. I don't see a reason why they would mention on the bag vitamin E, A and D content but not B vitamin content if B vitamins ARE included. It's as if I received a version with an incomplete formula.

I would think if there is only pea instead of several legumes, the pea would instead pose a heftier percentage of the product... And if there's an issue with a basic ingredient in legumes in general, it shouldn't matter if it's a mix or a single legume. There's probably still less legumes when it's combined with rice, but as I said, rice produce was also mentioned as implicated with DCM cases in one of the sources... Perhaps a lot of these reports (even if the FDA's is more specific on the grain-free cases) fail to differentiate between general prevalence of common ingredients and causality.

They didn't actually give numbers for what's "high on X, low on Y".

With the ratio between these meat sources in the FDA's DCM report I say it probably doesn't matter because these (chicken and lamb) are two very common, perhaps the most common, meat sources for all dog foods, whether grain-free or not (and probably even more so for non-grain-free), while the condition that was disproportionate in the FDA report was the diets mostly being grain-free. I assume the most prevalent dog foods sold contain grain (as they seem more common), so them not being the most common in the report shows a deviation which could point to a causality. The weird meats such as kangaroo, again, I say it might be because a bunch of these food brands are purposely unusual in their choice of ingredients, and thus uncommon meat sources show up more often along other ingredients that are actually more implicative.

I didn't really understand who these "WSAVA" are and whether they should be given such authority. I also want to say that another, not certainly important enough, parameter that isn't looked into is the prevalence of people feeding their dogs grain-free or "boutique" foods actually regularly seeking veterinary advice and checkups for the pets versus such prevalence for people feeding their dog more common food that doesn't necessarily require the dog owners making specific research when choosing it.

Perhaps the difference in DCM prevalence is not great between either diet, but those feeding with grain don't get to the vet and diagnose their dogs as often? Again, this sounds a bit unlikely to be of too great importance (if >90% of the reported cases were grain-free), but it's one of the links which need to be taken into account when preparing an actual study which wants to present causal rather than circumstantial links.

 

[servadac]

@bonjala

that fish meal might contain ethoxyquin but it won't be required to state this for the final dog food product.

Which is why you can contact the company about where the fish comes from. Whitefish is only treated with ethoxyquin if it was caught at sea and brought to land. Farmed whitefish isn't treated.

It's as if I received a version with an incomplete formula.

Once again, contact the company about this. They will be able to give you the best explanation. Or don't feed it if you're uncomfortable with the food.

rice produce was also mentioned as implicated with DCM cases in one of the sources

But it's not seen as an issue. Rice just happened to be in one of the foods fed to a dog that developed DCM - again, not every diet was grain free, some were boutique brands and/or had exotic proteins. However, the current recommendation is to avoid all grain free. Also, there's absolutely no way to make assumptions about whether or not only listing pea means there's more than if they listed multiple legumes. The concern is with companies listing more than one legume because it's even harder to know just how much is in the formula. There's also a concern that something about legumes may be inhibiting the absorption of taurine.

I assume the most prevalent dog foods sold contain grain (as they seem more common), so them not being the most common in the report shows a deviation which could point to a causality.

That's what I said and that's why the main recommendation is to avoid grain free.

I didn't really understand who these "WSAVA" are and whether they should be given such authority.

The WSAVA is the World Small Animal Veterinary Association. The Global Nutrition Committee is a committee of Veterinary Nutritionists from across the globe who came together to review, discuss, and create references for people to use about pet nutrition. I'm not sure who I'd trust more than a group of certified, PhD professionals in the field of animal nutrition to help guide me towards picking a dog food.

but those feeding with grain don't get to the vet and diagnose their dogs as often?

So, you believe the majority of people feed grains, but you also believe that same majority doesn't go to the vet? or, at least, doesn't go to the vet as often? You realize that many breeders still feed Pedigree, Purina is very often fed in the Poodle show world, and many other breeders feed the brands that have been around for a while as opposed to newer brands. You don't believe those dogs are going to the vet despite all of their health testing?

I'll be honest, I'm not even sure what you're trying to say or argue. Do you want to keep feeding TotW? Do you want to feed a brand that I didn't list above? Do you not believe in the DCM issue?

In the end, a lot of this really doesn't matter as much. Use the WSAVA guidelines or don't, but my final statement would be: if a company has you concerned enough that you don't know what to believe (they say something different online compared to what's on the bag) I would recommend you find a different food. If you're that concerned about a preservative sometimes used in whitefish where there have been no studies showing an health concerns, don't feed whitefish, feed salmon.

 

[bonjala]

@servadac But here's the thing. You mentioned Purina more than once, and apparently it's a very popular brand (owned by Nestlé), and they also have a grain-free line of dog food as their online catalog shows. Wouldn't it be likely their grain-free varieties also sell plenty if they're a strong brand, perhaps no less than (for example) Tatse of the Wild? So how come they aren't mentioned at all in the dog foods implicated in the FDA report? Maybe it's something else in the formula, as I see the grain-free Purina too contains three derivatives of pea (pea starch, pea protein, pea fiber in that order, though the last two are rather down the line and perhaps pea starch is the part containing "the bad stuff").

I searched for different fish-based offerings, but didn't find much that fit the bill. And I'm not sure salmon was said to specifically not contain ethoxyquin. It was actually claimed somewhere that whitefish is less likely to have it (possibly not true) due to being a leaner meat, but either way I read ethoxyquin is used in some places in the feed of salmon. So again, unless a dog food manufacturer has specifically stated they source all materials from ethoxyquin-free producers, I don't think you can be sure of its presence or lack thereof.

Anyway, I'm not trying to make an endless discussion about this. I'll probably call the shop tomorrow and ask them if I can return the TotW bag after opening it, I simply didn't find any certain alternative.

 

[servadac]

@bonjala

So how come they aren't mentioned at all in the dog foods implicated in the FDA report?

This is part of the general recommendation to go with foods that meet WSAVA guidelines, as these foods are backed by more research testing, and have undergone feeding trials. That said, right now since we don't know exactly what's going on, the recommendation by Veterinary Nutritionists is to avoid all grain free.

So again, unless a dog food manufacturer has specifically stated they source all materials from ethoxyquin-free producers, I don't think you can be sure of its presence or lack thereof

I'm not arguing against this. This is why I'm telling you to contact companies to see what they say. They should be able to tell you where they source their ingredients from. If they can't, skip them.

As for ethoxyquin, specifically, do you have a reputable source that actually says the amount that could be found in dog food is harmful. I'm honestly not sure why you're more concerned about a preservative that's not harmful in the allowable amounts but want to debate nutritional DCM.

 

[bonjala]

@servadac I was referring to the grain-free Purina. That one can't be meeting the WSAVA guidelines. If it sells at all you'd expect it to show up on the FDA report.

 

[servadac]

@bonjala It does meet WSAVA guidelines because WSAVA doesn't talk about specific ingredients. I posted the questions above that you can look at. The WSAVA guidelines were developed years ago, well before we knew about nutritional DCM.

You might expect it to show up in the FDA report, but the fact that it doesn't has a lot to do with the unknown nature of this nutritional DCM. As I said, the current recommendation is to avoid grain free from all brands. However, there's just as much a chance the real issue is the way a food is formulated. The brands that are showing up the most don't do a lot of research, they formulate their foods only on analysis of ingredients and not feeding trials, and their formulas weren't created by Veterinary Nutritionists. That's what separates those grain free foods from grain free foods of companies that do meet WSAVA guidelines.

 

[bonjala]

@servadac So TotW don't hire any nutritional veterinarians?

Anyway, I called the shop and told them I decided to return the TotW bag and try the Hill's Science Plan Lamb & Rice instead. I did see Hill's mentioned a couple of times in the diet information inside the detailed FDA report PDF, but if it's supposed to be very popular it would still mean it's underrepresented.

But actually when I searched "best selling dog food", this result came from a website called "petfoodindustry.com":

Online sales of these five pet foods and treats were the top sellers on Amazon.com in 2016, according to a report from One Click Retail, “Pet Products: The Amazon Effect.” Amazon’s top selling pet food was Taste of the Wild Dry Dog Food with more than US$25 million in 2016 sales.

And the top three were:
1. Taste of the Wild dry dog food - High Prairie Canine Formula with Roasted Bison and Venison
2. Taste of the Wild - Pacific Stream Canine Formula with Smoked Salmon
3. Wellness CORE Natural Grain Free dry dog food - Original Turkey and Chicken, 26-Pound Bag

Maybe some of the cited brands just became highly prevalent on the market? I think it should be explained whether the number of recently reported cases is even considered a statistical rise in DCM prevalence.

 

[bonjala]

@servadac Also, I did read earlier that they mostly found low levels of taurine in the reported cases, but now looking at the FDA website I didn't find such a specific deceleration.

But I will say that they did seem to connect between the prevalent products and several keywords such as peas, lentils etc. being in the top 10 of the product's ingredient list (before vitamins), and peas ARE present as such in Pro Pac's formulas (which my dog doesn't like). But at the same time I didn't see Pro Pac mentioned as a feed given to the dogs in the FDA report.

 

[bonjala]

@servadac OK, another weird information that kind of contradicts itself or the supposed recommendations is that reading through the WVASA website says this about some of the common diets occurring in the DCM cases:
"...such as lamb, rice bran, high fiber diets, and very low protein diets".

And then when looking at the Hill's Science Diet line, one of the adult formulas is "Adult Lamb Meal & Brown Rice" and its first ingredients are... "Lamb Meal, Brown Rice, Brewers Rice, Whole Grain Sorghum, Whole Grain Wheat". So it contains lamb, whole rice and is probably high on fiber, though not "very low on protein".

But these ingredients don't seem to be related to grain-freeness, so I don't know if their additional mention as a possible dietary cause for DCM is justified (if we believe the lack of grains does have a reasonable likelihood of being related).

EDIT: Now I even see on the actual FDA report that the most common animal protein in these diets was... Chicken. And then lamb. And then salmon and then whitefish. It seems at least this part of the ingredients shouldn't be related as these are simply the most common meats used. There was probably an over-representation of "weird meats" later on in prevalence rating, but that's probably because the "boutique diets" and others being grain-free tend to include more unusual ingredients.

 

[thoks]

@servadac Yeah, I'd definitely look more at the bad breath issue. If your dog is having dental issues that might explain why he is reluctant to eat.

 

[bonjala]

@thoks I thought about that, but as I mentioned earlier the vet said his teeth look fine.

 

[jd79]

@bonjala

And with the possible relation to DCM?

Read this:

https://taurinedcm.org/taurine-dcm-faq/

 

[yarash45]

@jd79 THIS.

Also, I’ve had great success with TOTW, Pacific Stream specifically.

Don’t let the DCM craziness scare you. Even the FDA isn’t exactly sure what’s causing this issue and there’s far too much testing that needs to be done to say for sure it’s “grain free diets”. Plus, the studies were so, so small that it’s hard to pinpoint what the true issue is.