Am I doing counter-conditioning/desensitization the right way?

[joannad]

Hey all,

I'm looking for some more guidance regarding my 16 month old male Stabyhoun+Australian shepherd mix.

What I'm working on a lot right now, is trying to make him react/feel different about things. He used to get worked up (staring, sometimes lunging, pulling) at things like people, cats, dogs!, birds, leaves floating around. Especially dogs and cats interest him now. I've also been working on leash pulling, which is definitely making progress (although slow). His pulling is way less than before, and he knows Pulling = me stopping, until leash is slack (I then immediate release all leash tension once he gives in, and then we continue working). The circle method also works well for us. But it's still not what I'd like it to be. So more tips on this would be awesome too. I just feel like him being so over-excited/reactive towards the environment is also contributing to him pulling, so that's why I'm also trying to focus a lot on the trigger issues.

What I came across recently, was this technique:

At the exact moment the dog see's a trigger such as a dog, human, car, bird, etc, then CLICK/Mark and reward. What I have been told is to do this BEFORE he gets the chance to react to the trigger. It has been said that clicking/marking the moment he see's a trigger, he starts to associate a positive reaction with the trigger, and will eventually look at a trigger and expect a treat to arrive. Then, eventually, he's then supposedly supposed to look at the trigger, then look at me ("Where it the treat") and then the exact moment he looks at me, I'd need to click+treat. At this point I'm not supposed to click the moment he see's the trigger anymore.

Is this technique I learned the correct way of going about this?

Another technique or variation was: when a dog see's the trigger, immediate treat him (without marking or clicking) because the trigger will serve as the 'marker'. The human, dog, cat, bird will be 'the marker' which indicated the treat is coming.

Yet another variation is to only click+reward once the dog looks back at you after locking eyes on the trigger. To me, the feels a bit difficult, because it offers him too much time to amp himself up whilst being focused on his trigger.

What are some of the techniques that worked for you and your dog? I'm very curious to learn about more ways to go about this. My main goal is to simply be able to walk with him, without him being so over-excited/reactive towards other dogs, humans, cats, bird, leaves blowing around, etc.

I feel like he's already close to neutral towards humans, and making progress regarding birds. I'm just trying see if I'm going about this the right way, or in the most productive way. He's a quick learner. He learned to weave between my legs in one afternoon, as well as to heel using a pivot motion (using this method:

). It indicates to me that he's clever enough to learn (and quick, if he's offered good communication that fits his way of thinking), and it gives me motivation and hope to continue to do my best. I feel like I need to understand the dog better, and that I need to understand how to communicate better with the dog. He's not dumb, but he needs proper fitting communication from me to learn how to do things, or what to do.

If any of you can help me gain some more clarity, or guidance regarding training, it would be greatly appreciated. Videos, personal experiences and tips/advice are all welcome.

Thank you kindly.

 

[mercyfollowsme]

@joannad What you're doing is exactly what we learned in our reactive dogs class and what has worked really well with our girl.

As to the timing of the treat/click...for us at first it was "Yes" (our marker word instead of a clicker) as soon as she saw a trigger and did not react (basically we didn't even give her time to react, kind of interrupted her amping herself up by giving her a treat.) Then, we added a "Look at me" command. This then interrupted her getting amped up and she got a treat when she moved her eyes from the trigger to us. Now, it varies. A lot of the time she just looks at a trigger and then looks at us (and still gets a treat for that). Sometimes she gets slightly amped up but then remembers and looks at us. Sometimes we have to ask her to look at us, which she usually responds to. Occasionally, we have to put space between us and the trigger. It all depends on her mood, the environment, how exciting the trigger is, and how far away it is. I try to read her body language to see what level of intervention I need at that moment.

Another game that helped us is "treat and retreat." We did this along the fence to our neighbor's yard because she was (still is sometimes) reactive to their dog. Basically, ask her to look at the other dog, treat, then throw a treat in the opposite direction. I think this helped almost build muscle memory of disengaging with the trigger. We will also do a version of this sometimes when on walks when we encounter a trigger. Basically, throw a treat on the ground and she has to find it. In dire situations, when we really need to distract her, we'll throw a bunch of treats onto the grass or leaves and she has a blast finding them instead of engaging with the trigger.

 

[mwillerson]

@mercyfollowsme Reactive dog owner here. This information is so helpful.
And OP your description along with your information is also so helpful.
Will save this post...TY

 

[joannad]

@mercyfollowsme Thanks for sharing! It's really interesting stuff. I suppose there's always room for some improvement in the stages of counter conditioning. I've really only been working more on it the last few weeks.

I really like your "Treat and retreat" game! It seems like a very good idea actually. I'm definitely going to try and apply this technique as well. I feel like it's a very good idea. Also regarding getting him to fully disengage from the trigger. More tips are welcome.

Thanks!

 

[kittyc]

@joannad Sounds good. My tip would be: teach the dog to back up one step in response to leash pressure before you release tension on the leash. I learned this off a service dog forum and it helped a TON, because it teaches a response to leash pressure instead of just not pulling. Just slowly and gently increase leash tension at a stop until a foot moves backwards, then mark and move.

Clicker vs no clicker--doesn't really matter much. The key in counterconditioning is to work well under threshold and don't overdo it or push too fast. If you aren't getting a happy anticipation of the treat, you are likely working too close to threshold. The one thing I like having a clicker or marker for is if the trigger does an action that the dog could find exciting in some way. So I will treat a dog-reactive dog for watching another dog at a distance without a marker, but click and treat if the trigger barks or jumps on someone or starts walking past the car for example.

The look at trigger and then look at human behavior is operant, not classical like counterconditioning. The dog is making a conscious choice. This can be particularly great to use for management, and it's easier to train because we get a clear eye contact behavior to reward, but the counterconditioning is sort of a side effect. If you can't get your dog's attention onto the trigger because they are so excited about food, you can have trouble working under threshold because the dog won't notice the trigger until it's close enough to worry the dog, in which case the negative emotional response is already at play. In that case, getting the dog to look is the only way to pair the trigger with the food without fighting the start of that fight or flight response. However, if you slow your rate of delivering food a lot, you can sometimes let the dog just watch the trigger from a distance instead of just a glance, and I prefer that with my highly treat motivated pups because they start to just move their heads away and back and I stop feeling confident they are actually LOOKING lol.

I use all of these depending on the session setup and dog's behavior.

If the dog does go over threshold, remember that a surge of stress hormones have been released and will be slowly dissipating over the next couple weeks. The next day or three in particular, the dog's brain and body are primed for danger and fast reaction. Take a break, or at the very least work like the threshold distance is much greater.

Last tips are to pay super close attention to all the dog's body language and try to find earlier and earlier indications of discomfort so that you get better at selecting and adjusting the threshold distance without risking going over. And keep the training schedule laid back and yourself very calm. Your anxious or fearful dog needs your emotional regulation and parasympathetic (rest & digest) nervous system function to help the dog's mirror neurons help the dog feel safe and calm down. If you are getting stressed in the moment, take a break! And make sure your mental health is as optimal as you can make it in general to provide the most coregulation for your dog. My youngest dog has gotten way less reactive from long periods of nearly zero counterconditioning but a lot lot lot of coregulation time with me, and me getting my cPTSD treated. I got "lazy" about him and it actually worked better than trying to do 2-5 sessions a week on counterconditioning. He went from snap/snarl/lunge at the vet to quietly leaning against my legs during appointments after I stopped doing cc sessions (like taking him to the vet waiting room on non-appointmemt days), and only did cc in situations that presented themselves to us (like electric company unexpectedly working a few feet outside the fence, or having to be at the vet anyway).

 

[joannad]

@kittyc Wow, thanks so much for this in depth reply! Very helpful stuff!

My tip would be: teach the dog to back up one step in response to leash pressure before you release tension on the leash. I learned this off a service dog forum and it helped a TON, because it teaches a response to leash pressure instead of just not pulling. Just slowly and gently increase leash tension at a stop until a foot moves backwards, then mark and move.

This makes a lot of sense! I often actually do this unplanned. Leash goes tense, I stand still, and I wait for him to step towards me (even just 1 step) and then, like you said, I go forward again. It's getting better, but he's still trying to do it's own thing walking in front of me, trying to follow his nose and eyes. Does you dog(s) still pull? Or only occasionally? Mine thankfully know what leash pressure means when I practice it with him. He gives in quite easily when we practice it.

So if I understand correctly, you woulnd't click if the dog's focus goes onto another dog/cat/human/bird, but only treat after hiim locking his eyes onto it? In a way it makes sense, because the 'object' itself (dog, cat, human, bird) is in a sense the 'marker'. Am I right? I might be wrong. I'm really just trying to understand and learn about this. I'm hearing 2 different things on youtube, though. Some say click when he focuses on something, some say only treat when he focuses on something.

Justnow, we went outside to practice some more. There was a cat chilling in front of another person's house, so I thought I'd use this to practice. We started from a distance he was comfortable with, which seems to be like 15 meters or so. So, when he locked his eyes onto the cat, I clicked + rewarded. When I started to notice he would refocus on the cat and then immediate look back at me again (within 3 secs or so), I knew he was progressing, so I moved a bit closer towards the cat. We progressed up until he was about 3 meters away from the cat. He kept refocusing on the cat and then quickly focusing back onto my eyes, which I feel showed me he was doing good. Am I right? But, what I did do was: Him focusing on the cat = me clicking that exact moment and rewarding him. Then I allowed him to try if he could focus on the cat and then focus on me before I click, and he did. Is this the way to go? I then felt like I should only click after he refocuses on me. I really try to keep him below threshold the best I can. If you have any more tips or advice, I'd love to hear it.

your last paragraph is very interesting as well, thank you so much for sharing!

EDIT: Just some clarification. My dog is totally not agressive. He's actually never been agressive in any kind towards another dog or human. He literally gets overexcited because he wants to play so bad with other dogs. Play and sniff and possibly ride. Lol.

 

[kittyc]

@joannad I save my clicks for when the trigger does something stimulating. If the cat stood up from lying down, I would click and treat that. Counterconditioning is classical conditioning so you are in essence treating for a condition of the environment, not a decision of the dog like in operant conditioning. If you only click when the dog looks at you, you get a dog who looks at you a lot, and at some point I don't want the dog to need to focus on me to be around the trigger, so I tend to phase that out pretty early. I also don't want to shove food in a dog's face when they are busy looking at a potential trigger, so I will treat when the dog looks at me but only after they have spent a little time looking at the trigger, and not for a momentary glance. A click CAN be a great way to interrupt a stare that's getting too intense or any building of tension without taking things in the wrong direction emotionally.

As for focus, I am looking for interest but not fixation. A stare is too close to threshold for me, but if the body weight is not forward, the ears are not zeroed on the trigger constantly, and the face and lips look relaxed, that's a great spot to be.

Typically I don't see 12m of progress in one session, but I work mostly with fearful dogs and that is slower than frustration. I would be very careful though to be looking at the more subtle signs of tension, and continue to work at the distance just greater than that for an entire session (5 min max) at a time if you do see any signs of discomfort.

If your dog isn't experiencing any fear, you are either counterconditioning the emotional frustration of the leash preventing the dog from getting to the trigger, or you don't actually need counterconditioning at all because you don't have a negative emotion to reprogram. Either way, you can focus less on counterconditioning and more on desensitization and calmness (practice being around exciting stuff without being excited) and on connection with you over interest in other stuff. If the dog is happily overexcited, treating for looking at you instead makes a lot more sense, because you want your dog to be more interested in you than in the cat.

Pulling--that one step thing sounds perfect. You can pair the step with an audio cue for dogs who tend to get really distracted. I like "Steady." Start by saying it as the foot is taking the step towards you for a while, and when you are getting a clear deliberate step in order to get you to go forward again, switch to saying it just before the dog hits the end of the leash or starts to increase tension to more than you want. If you time it right after a few times of the Cue-leash tension-stop-backstep sequence the dog will understand that that's a verbal warning and if they slow down they don't have to stop. When they respond to the Steady by slowing or stopping, mark and pick up the pace--a short jog can be a good reward for a pulley dog.

Nobody is perfect, and especially if we get out of practice, or get surprised by a bunny taking off out of hiding from close nearby, occasional pulling happens but as long as I consistently require the backwards step, it's pretty rare. The walks I take are for the dog, and I want them out front sniffing and stopping to smell things for most of the walk. If they want to go in a specific direction, they will feel the leash pressure before it gets bothersome to me, look at me for permission, and I say Good and move quickly towards where they want to go if it's safe. If not, I say leave it and let's go and we keep moving. I try to only use that if necessary and not for my convenience (except when my one dog was in her service dog harness, then no sniffing unless it was potty time, but she was busy with other things). I don't want to be pulled and neither does the dog, but it's good for your dog to get to smell all the things and leave pee mail messages and all that. You get to doing the walk as a team and it's the best feeling in the world.

I eventually taught all my dogs "left" to get them to move a little leftward or, if they are behind, to only come up to pass me on my leash side. I just step over the leash if I pass them and they are to my right. Makes 3 leashes much more manageable. If they pass on the right, we stop and I use the leash to guide them back around my body to come up on the left. With my mutt, I taught him the other directions and whoa so I could give him clues while I bike and he runs along tied to my waist. We don't bike anymore but when we come to a corner and I tell him which way he usually remembers. Since he's out ahead, it makes sense for me to let him know if we are turning so he doesn't go the wrong way and then have to turn around and catch up. Teamwork! Pulling first but a few other verbal cues are generally greatly appreciated.

Sometimes practicing with a longer leash (I like 8' in town and 30' in parks or rural areas) will give you more opportunities to reward without as many failures.

You can always train a strict heel behavior for getting past tricky distractions, but don't overuse it and cancel the benefits of the sniffy walk.

 

[joannad]

@kittyc

Counterconditioning is classical conditioning so you are in essence treating for a condition of the environment, not a decision of the dog like in operant conditioning

Wow. I never thought of it like this. Makes so much sense now. In this same paraphraph, did I read correctly that you basically only treat once the dog is looking back at you after looking at the trigger for a while? Not treating the moment the dog locks onto the trigger?

As for focus, I am looking for interest but not fixation. A stare is too close to threshold for me, but if the body weight is not forward, the ears are not zeroed on the trigger constantly, and the face and lips look relaxed, that's a great spot to be.

Makes sense, too. Thank you.

Typically I don't see 12m of progress in one session, but I work mostly with fearful dogs and that is slower than frustration. I would be very careful though to be looking at the more subtle signs of tension, and continue to work at the distance just greater than that for an entire session (5 min max) at a time if you do see any signs of discomfort.

Noted! This is great advice, too. He actually seemed chill about it all. Aroud 3m or so, he started laying down even. But we've been practicing with cats before. And the cat's have always been super super still. Like, they don't much a single bit. Which helps, too, I guess.

Either way, you can focus less on counterconditioning and more on desensitization and calmness (practice being around exciting stuff without being excited) and on connection with you over interest in other stuff.

Hmmm. I honestly thought both were somewhat the same thing. I realize I might be wrong. I do feel my dog is more excited than fearful. He's always incredibly playful with other dogs and humans. Too much even. He never in his life barked or did anything agressive towards anybody or any dog, ever. I've been to dog parks with him lots of time before, and he was the most playful happy dog out of all of them. So I feel like it's more just my dog being super excited to play with dogs he encounters outside. He then doesn't get what he wants, and can get frustrated (at the leash, or will chase own tail, run in circles, sometimes around me.)

Really like the pulling paragraph. It sounds like such a good idea!

Really like the rest as well. I'm actually thinking I should print this out, so that I can read it when I feel like I need to.

Thanks so much, it's super appreciated! Are you a dog trainer, or did you learn all of this just out of interest yourself?

 

[kittyc]

@joannad I don't hold any professional credentials, but I was an animal keeper for about a decade before I switched to dogs 12 years ago and I have taught quite a few dog training clients and volunteered with many dogs in a shelter. In general, I recommend carefully vetting a CPDT trainer, but it doesn't make financial sense for me to test for the cert so far.

I treat when the dog looks at me, in my general direction, or breaks eye contact and looks around some and I catch their eye with my treat hand, or if it has been a significant while I will sometimes wave my treat hand through their peripheral vision. I try not to insist on eye contact and if I get too much eye contact, I may even ignore the first few check-ins and treat the 3rd or 4th eye contact if the dog is really into eye contact that session. I don't hate on eye contact in general and train it on cue in other contexts, I just end up with dogs that won't stop staring at me while I want them to look at the trigger if I only treat eye contact during CC lol

Lying down near the cat sounds like you are on the right track for your dog. That's awesome.

You might want to check out kikopup on YouTube and her capturing calmness videos. I have done a little of that with my least chill dog and it can help a lot if your dog tends to ramp up in excitement really easily.

Sounds to me like you are doing a superb job with your dog!!

 

[joannad]

@kittyc Thanks so much for sharing. Interesting backstory about your life with dogs.

What you said about staring is interesting too. I'm always rewarding him for check-ins. Now, lately, I have been feeding him his kibble during training and especially walks. He seems more food motivated because of it. I do now start to notice him looking at my eyes too much. Almost obsessively, because he wants food. I ignore it when I see him fishing for food. I never give him treats/food whenever I see him begging for it. Him staring obsessively at me indicates to me that he wants the food. So I only reward the 'legit' check-ins. For example, when we're walking and his just doing his thing, but then decides to check in with me to see if I'm still there. I also noticed my dog starting to obsessively heel besides me whilst walking, fishing for food.

Lying down near the cat sounds like you are on the right track for your dog. That's awesome.

Yes, this actually happened on 2 different occasions this week. Still need to be careful, though. If the cat makes some weird move, the dog does get too aroused.

I was just doing some more research about dogs, and came across the term "Over-Socialized", basically meaning the dog has been socialized too much, making him too excited/happy about seeing other dogs, thinking playtime with other dogs is about to begin. I really could relate with what was being said about "over socialization", and it really sounded exactly like my dog. Do you maybe have tips regarding this? Or is the CC and stuff I'm doing right now good enough?

Also, with dog training, what's the difference between CC and desensitization?

Thank you so much.

 

[kittyc]

@joannad I am not super familiar with over-socialization, but I have seen cases where a dog has developed an expectation of greeting every person or dog he sees, and trying to change that can be really difficult because you get a sort of tantrum-y behavior because the dog has no idea what to do with the big feelings that come when they don't get to do the fun thing they expect. I would call it a subset of frustrated greeter. It can be really hard on owners especially if they switch to allowing leashes greetings sometimes but not always, because the intermittent reinforcement of getting to greet after doing their pulling and crying or whatever actually makes them feel like they need to pull harder, cry louder, or otherwise intensify the behavior because sometimes it works. It's best to go cold turkey for a while and do any playing or greetings off-leash so that behavior can die off before trying to bring on-leash greetings back, if you do at all. When you do start leashed greetings again you can add a verbal cue like go say hi or something. For a dog like that I would also do lots of leave it and other impulse control work on the side, and if emotional regulation doesn't develop proportionally, maybe teach sequences from the book Real Dog Yoga to help with de-escalation of arousal skills.

I had one dog client who wanted to chase a new kitten. We put him on leash with one human, while another brought the kitten out and held it. Treats for loose leash so he knew what to do. Then we played with the kitten with a flirt pole, but still at a pretty big distance, and worked closer. Within a week or two the dog had gotten used to chilling while the kitten moved and was able to be calm enough to make friends and they actually played together really well after that. I thought there was a bigger prey drive aspect and that it would take much longer, but once he calmed down he just wanted to play.

Counterconditioning is pairing a trigger that causes unpleasant emotions with something that causes pleasant emotions, like food, and using that to reprogram the emotional response to the trigger. Desensitization is more neutral, and it's just using lots of exposure to a trigger the dog finds unusual and exciting to make it more boring and normal.

If the dog is happily excited to chase a squirrel, you don't need to pair the squirrel with treats because the dog is already happy, and if treats are exciting you might even get more excitement, which you don't want. Instead, you need to make sure all natural behavior expression needs are met (so teach fetch or do flirt pole play for a squirrel chaser so they aren't filled with pent up prey drive) and then have them spend as much time being bored or relaxed around squirrels as possible. Play squirrel noises on the stereo all day. Let them watch squirrels from a far enough distance it's not very exciting, and as they get less sensitive to squirrels move in closer. Do calm-ish obedience behaviors with squirrels in the distance. A little distraction is okay (this is riskier with fear because if they get surprised by the trigger it's a setback) and if you go over threshold with a dog who is happy excited but not fearful or frustrated, it's not a huge setback like it is with counterconditioning so you can push the speed a little faster too.

One example of using DS but not CC for a fear behavior is a noise based thunder phobia. You put recorded thunder on the best speakers you can get and run it at a volume just under what you think the dog can hear, a few hours a day. Every few days turn the volume up a notch. The dog never learns to like thunder, but ideally becomes desensitized enough that it no longer bothers them. It's slower than using CC too, and maybe easier to mess up with fear behaviors when used without CC. All CC sessions contain a bit of DS just because there's mild exposure when working under threshold. If you are seeing frustration like leash biting, I might continue CC, but if your dog doesn't seem distressed in any way, you can focus on DS alone and go a bit faster.

 

[joannad]

@kittyc

I am not super familiar with over-socialization, but I have seen cases where a dog has developed an expectation of greeting every person or dog he sees, and trying to change that can be really difficult because you get a sort of tantrum-y behavior because the dog has no idea what to do with the big feelings that come when they don't get to do the fun thing they expect. I would call it a subset of frustrated greeter.

Yup, my dog. Lol. I do feel this desensitization/CC work I'm doing is already showing some progress. Some triggers more than others. Humans are almost neutral to him now, but humans kicking a ball makes him nuts (like justnow). The ball was likely the trigger here. He loves to play with a ball. We were quite far away even. So I moved farther away up until a point he was calming down, and then waited for him to chill before we continue working on stuff. I always try to scan the environment where ever I go (around my street mainly nowadays) and try to set him up for succes. Today, we unknowingly passed a cat, like 2 meters apart. He didn't react much, but I still continued to use this moment as a training exercise. He responded well to it. He was more interested in the boiled chicken than the cat. Lol.

I really like all your other explanations and detailed information about CC and DS and the difference between the two. Its so increidbly helpful and insightful. I'm truly thankful!

 

[joannad]

@kittyc Do you maybe also have some tips for me/my dog when we pass a grassy of planty area, which makes my dog act incredibly obsessed with sniffing, rendering me and anything I say as non existent? He also has this with plants/bushes pretty much everywhere. Most of his leash pulling comes from him wanting to obsessively smell stuff. I often try to walk him somewhat in the middle of the road to prevent him from obsessing, but I don't plan on walking on the middle of the road forever.

Maybe you have some helpful tips for me.

 

[kittyc]

@joannad Sure! Ideal choice if safe is to try waiting him out for eye contact checkin. He pulls, it doesn't work, and eventually he looks back at you to see what your problem is. You mark, say Go Sniff, and move towards the bush fast enough there's no leash tension on the way there. You may have to sprint the first few times but it's important there's no pulling on the way and as little delay as possible between the check-in and the sniff reward especially early on. Let him sniff around as long as he isn't try to drag you. Move with him at a comfortable pace for you, but if he moves fast enough to get to pulling stop until you get another eye contact checkin and repeat. Watch his body language and work on being able to predict the moment before he's ready to carry on with the walk, and say Let's Go and get going. The first few times if he is very unconnected to you it could take 5 or even 15 minutes to get that check-in, but it will get faster and faster each time until he will want to sniff something and instead of pulling, look at you. Reward with sniffing as often as you possibly can because it's such a powerful motivator, better than food for many scenarios.

If you cannot let him sniff where he wants, say Leave It if he knows that, Let's Go, and move fast PAST the bush instead. Especially in the early parts of training this should be used as seldom as possible, but also most people do not provide enough sniffing time on walks and it's pretty much the most important part of the walk. If you are in a rush go without your dog, and take your dog on a sniffy walk later. But if it's a dead animal carcass or a fast food burger lying there so you can't risk it for the dog's sake, you don't have to stop and get a check-in, just get past as fast as possible. Whenever he stops pulling in this scenario, you can mark and give a treat to reward cooperation. Do your best to manage the leash length during passing so that he makes as little progress towards the bush as possible as you pass, so shorten the lead as you get closer to the bush and then you can let go once you are past the temptation, or even be fancy and pay it out gradually as you pass if you want to give him more chances to choose to follow you instead of get pulled. A dog being left farther behind is much more likely to give up on pulling than a dog who is still very close to you on a shortened lead. A little jog can both make the dog more interested in following you AND reward the dog after it has because we walk super slow to them.

I wouldn't insist on the backstep to respond to leash pressure when it's a sniff thing, because the check-in is way more important and both is just a lot to ask at once in such a distracting situation. You can do the backstep for less tempting pulling situations, or wait and throw it in once the visual checkin is so good you aren't normally having to come to a complete stop before sniffing any more, or if he starts trying to do a check-in and pull at the same time, which is unlikely.