Advice on Newfoundland breeding, and general ethics

[jessicacharlie]

Keep in mind rules 1,3,and 7.

NOTE, PLEASE READ THE EDITS
*I won't be deleting the edits, because my intelectual journey may be the same as someone else's. The conclusions, questions. And answers might help someone who is in my boat. *

Background:

I recently bought a Newfoundland as a family pet, and I'm planning on breeding them.

I live in Newfoundland (the province in Canada), where the breed is from, however the breed is dying in my area. Breeders have retired decades ago, and the closest breeders (BYB or Registered) and literally thousands of Miles/Km Away.

Having a Newf has been my dream since I was a small child, culturally the breed is extremely important to my island's history and identity. I picked up my pup on the opposite end of the country while visiting family and its been the best decision of my life.

Since bringing my pup home, I cant go on a walk without having a dozen conversations with people either wishing they had one, admiring him, or expressing childhood memories of when they had one growing up.

The Plan:

Understanding the common pitfalls to validity of claims, and inaccuracy of DNA testing even if I went ahead with one. I think I have a decent claim of my dog being purebred (his sire and dame were purebred and from CKC registered lines, however I have no paperwork and will likely not be able to get any)

My Pup (Carl) is 11 months now, and I am in the process of adopting a dame as a pet and potentially breeding stock. (she is 8 week old puppy I have not yet received)

\**Before too many alarm bells go off in everyone's collective heads here is my plan thus far**\**

1). Upon receipt of my new pup, full health checks at my vet, and letting them know my plan to have at least one litter.

2). Regular dog owner activities until the Dame is between 1.5-2 years old (with advice from my vet) keeping my pups separate during heat cycles until of age.

3). Have a litter, with Vet support.

4). Market puppies PURELY as healthy family pets, full health screenings, with non breeding agreements. (neuter at 18-24 months as recommended.) *it was hard to site breed specific spay/neuter information, but this reddit comment has some

https://www.reddit.com/r/Newfoundlander/comments/745qa3/comment/dnw91og

*

5). If enough interest is shown locally, the plan splits. and would be one of the following options.

a). Cease breeding and have my pets spayed/neutered.

b). Continue Breeding (with consult from my vet (particularly about litter health, and gauging market interest so no pup goes without a home).

c). Have my pets spayed/neutered, reinvest with AKA or CKC registered dogs.

finally the point of this post.

From experienced and educated minds;

What questions should I be asking myself?

What are common pitfalls I haven't acknowledged?

What are some unknown costs or logistics I should consider?

What advice do you have, or things you wish you knew getting into this?

How can I make the best of the situation outlines above, so that I'm acting as ethically as possible?

First Edit:
I think I may be comfortable being a BYB for the first litter, as long as I can act as ethically as possible while doing so.

Going forward with complex health checks and screenings before and after litter (first for Sire/dame, then pups) ensuring the safety of my animals and veting future owners.

My reasoning is as follows: the appetite for registered dogs in my area might not be high (not verified), though demand for the breed is.

I think the main thing I lose out on is the support of the registries.

I'll have to weigh everything out in my own head, Going forward with a (as ethically sound as possable) BYB situation or a kennel registry breeding business.

Either way, my mind is not fully made up one way or the other. I appreciate the comments and opinions, especially the "hard to hear truths" that's exactly why I made this post, so thank you.

Second edit:
Okay, so I will not be going ahead with breeding non registered dogs collective sigh of relief for everyone here I'm sure

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments and advice on how to proceed, and best actions going forward.

There is a lot to learn here, and I'm sure I'll make another post eventually as an update.

IMPORTANT
As a reddit specific note. Why downvote me to hell? Wouldn't you rather someone come here to ask these questions instead of just doing what they want?

I'm here for knowledge and advice, not to be chastised or attacked via some silly "internet points" system.

If you disagree, or dislike my train of thought JUST SAY SO. I don't think I've done anything down vote worthy by trying to get more information, and expressing questions or doubts. And I think I've tried my best to be fair in hearing concerns (and more importantly listening to them).

*Third and final edit. *
I'm thankful for a lot of the replies I've received. Most of them I gave stickers to on at least one of their comments.

I won't be getting a second dog at this time. I will however be chatting with newfoundland breeders in Canada, and get all further advice from them.

As a final note to this community. Most of you seem very knowledgeable, and are willing to help and explain your businesses/hobbies/ love for dogs and breeding them.
There is a wealth of knowledge here and for the most part a lot of people were stern but kind, which I appreciate.

Others seem to be power tripping, you know who you are.

Also, why with all the downvotes? Even on this original post? I'm literally coming to a community of experts, asking a question, trying to be reasonable, and dispel my ignorance. Not get shot down and insulted.

I'm likely not going to ask for advice here again.

 

[greatlakes4ever]

@jessicacharlie Keep your current pet as a pet. Fix him. There is negative value in breeding his dog if your intention is to produce a good line.

Acquire a female pup from a reputable breeder with show potential, work with said breeder to show, title, and prepare pup to be bred. Find a stud, breed the female pup.

 

[thebadchristian]

@greatlakes4ever This is the ONLY way. Go to shows, meet breeders, and find someone willing to sell you a female pup with full registration. You must get into the show world because that is how you prove your dogs are worth breeding.

 

[hummelav]

@jessicacharlie I know you plan to sell the first crop of puppies as “pets only” but what’s your plan to enforce that? Dogs are property. You can get people to sign anything, that doesn’t make it an enforceable contract.

When an animal is sold as a pet only/without breeding rights, their papers say so. Should somebody breed a pet only animal, the offspring wouldn’t be able to be registered, so in theory, there’s little financial incentive to do this.

If your animal(s) don’t have registration to begin with, you wouldn’t really be able to track what the buyers do with the puppies. CKC does have a non-breeding agreement form on their website, but there aren’t really consequences for doing it, besides progeny not being registered or being able to be marketed purebred. If the parents already aren’t registered - there are no consequences to breeding the offspring. Buyers will think well, my breeder did it, why can’t I?

If you’ve found a deficit for this breed in your area, I’m sure others that buy puppies from you will encounter this as well, and have the same thought process you’ve had. You can’t stop them from breeding an animal they own. This will just perpetuate the cycle of BYB since you’ll have more people breeding dogs that are not registered - and by extension, they probably won’t go to lengths to get proper health clearance or work with a repro vet.

I know lots of people approach you now to gush over your dog, but they aren’t buyers. They will never be buyers. There’s posts in this sub that exemplify that well. EVERYBODY wants X breed of puppy, until they find out how much they cost, the care requirements, etc. there are a lot of tire kickers when it comes to puppies. These people have no idea what they’re getting into and if they do take a puppy, it will probably change hands within a year.

Your rationale for wanting to breed newfoundlands makes sense, but NOT with the animals you currently have. There is no benefit to the breed to put animals out there just to have them out there. People that buy from your first crop would likely not buy from a second crop. Somebody buying an unregistered dog wouldn’t be in the market for a registered dog, unless like you, they want to breed them.

You’re better off neutering the dog you have. If the female you’re interested in is registered, comes from parents that have been appropriately health tested, and comes from lines with titles and are proven to be great examples of the breed, then consider a stud of the same caliber when she’s ready.

 

[maybeitsme]

@jessicacharlie The Newfoundland Dog Club of Canada would be a good resource for you - https://www.newfoundlanddogclub.ca/index.html

I would especially suggest reading the Breeder Code of Ethics (pdf is linked here: https://www.newfoundlanddogclub.ca/member-forms--resources.html), as that covers the minimum health testing suggested.

 

[jessicacharlie]

@maybeitsme I'm out and about now, but this information is invaluable, thank-you

 

[busryde]

@jessicacharlie Full health checks are not done by your vet. Full health checks include submitting hip and elbow radiographs for evaluation (OFA being most common in Canada) and a cardiac clearance by a cardiologist as minimum for Newfies.

There absolutely are CKC Newfoundland breeders in Canada that show their dogs and do full health clearances. I suggest reaching out to them for mentorship.

Do not breed dogs without full registration.

Your current plan would make you a backyard breeder, and I don't say that to be insulting, but it is the truth.

 

[jessicacharlie]

@busryde Good information on the Radiographs/ Cardiologist! thanks for the tip.

To your second point. Yes there are, however there are few in the Atlantic provinces/ East coast let alone the island province of Newfoundland. This is the gap I'm looking to fill.

Your third point. I have a general idea of why not, but could you give me more information?

 

[busryde]

@jessicacharlie Why a registered dog? While being registered alone does not make dogs ethically bred, it is is an important component.

Registration allows for the tracking of pedigrees, which is important for ensuring good breeding practices (such as allowing the calculation of breeding coefficients). If there are health or behavioural issues that develop in lines, they can be easily tracked through pedigrees.

Registration also means my puppies are traceable. If an owner drops off the face of the earth, never speaks to me again, and then dumps the dog into the shelter system 5 years later? The dog is easily traceable back to me, so I can then move hell and high water if needed to ensure that dog is safe. (And a good breeder is willing to take back a dog they have bred at any point, no matter what. I made those dogs so I am responsible for them until they die.)

Registered dogs are unable to compete in conformation shows. I don't do conformation with my own dogs, as I breed for performance sports BUT my line has conformation champions from multiple countries. Why do we care about conformation titles? Being a nice dog isn't enough to be bred - they need to be a good example of the breed standard.

On a different note, I have had only had one litter and it took me about 10k to produce (health clearances, stud fee, reproduction vet fees, supplies, emergency vet care for one puppy who developed a runny eye and emergency vet care for momma dog when she developed mastitis.)

I had a vet who is also a breeder attend the whelping. First puppy got stuck on the way out and because a vet was there it was easily resolved. However if it hadn't received immediate care the puppies could have all died and the bitch could have died. You NEED good mentorship because when shit hits the fan, it can be deadly quickly.

 

[jessicacharlie]

@busryde Thankyou for a taking the time to explain this.

There is more to learn (Obviously) but I'm starting to understand thanks to your comment and ones like it.

I won't be going forward with anything i wont be breeding my current dog, I mean with seeing if this is for me without talking to breeders and asking for their advice and mentorship.

 

[busryde]

@jessicacharlie Newfs are fabulous dogs. Reach out to the Newfoundland Club of Canada and they will help you get started.

 

[busryde]

@jessicacharlie You also need to be cognizant of the fact that if there aren't Newfies in your community already, do people actually want them? It's fun to look at the big dog walking down the street but living with one is totally different.

 

[jessicacharlie]

@busryde Relax on the attack. This is no longer my opinion
I won't be going ahead with a BYB situation.

Old comment:
I think I'm comfortable being a BYB for the first litter, as long as I can act as ethically as possible while doing so.

Going forward with complex health checks and screenings before and after litter (first for Sire/dame, then pups) ensuring the safety of my animals and veting future owners.

My reasoning is as follows: the appetite for registered dogs in my area might not be high (not verified), though demand for the breed is.

I think the main thing I lose out on is the support of the registries.

I'll have to weigh everything out in my own head, Going forward with a (as ethically sound as possable) BYB situation, or a kennel registry breeding business.

 

[erniedavid]

@jessicacharlie "Ethically" and "BYB" do not belong in the same sentence. Spay your dog and find a reputable breeder to align yourself with. You have a LOT to learn.

 

[jessicacharlie]

@erniedavid Hey! What's why I'm here asking these questions!

Hard truths are exactly that, hard to hear, and true.

The big thing I'm struggling with now is the "why."

Why is BYB unethical if done in an ethical way? Why are registries hyper important if theoretically I did everything they did, but without their paperwork?

I'm not trying to be hostile, or push an agenda, I'm very seriously asking. Please help me understand

 

[dvm0071]

@jessicacharlie BYB is inherently unethical. You are breeding your Newfie because he is “healthy” right now according to your vet, but are his genes “healthy”? BYB don’t care what health problems the puppies(and therefore new owners) have to deal with, only that they produced a cute dog. Spending all the money to get the actual health testing required for a Newfie(hips, elbows, heart, and Cystinuria(causes urinary tract stones)) as suggested by the Newfoundland Club Of America(NCA) is EXPENSIVE. However it can guarantee(to an extent) the health and especially healthy longevity of your puppies, because its genes that get passed on, not a vet health check. No one wants to buy an expensive puppy just for him to be in pain and discomfort at age 5.

Dog Shows do not award the “prettiest” dog, rather the dog that most resembles his breed standard. A standard is the written blueprint that says which traits a dog should physical and mentally have to be able to do what they were created to do. Judges put their hands on the dogs and feel their build to make sure they are put together well for a long healthy life and the ABILITY to do the job they were created to do. It’s preserving a piece of physical history, a snapshot in time, for someone’s living room. That’s the true beauty of well bred purebred dogs imo. BYB breeders don’t even know what a standard is or what a well bred dog looks like. They just know that this a Newfie, even if it’s an ugly one who is going to have hip problems at age 5.

The WHY for good breeders is producing healthy dogs that are Newfoundlands through and through. The visible and the internal. Unhealthy dogs won’t last. An unhealthy breed without quality breeders will go extinct, its own health problems will kill it.

 

[erniedavid]

@jessicacharlie Reputable breeders want to improve the breed, or at least not make it any worse. BYBs don't care about anything but the $$$. If you are going to breed dogs of any breed, you need to start the learning curve. Have you ever read the breed standard? Do you even know there IS one? You need to do all the health tests and screens. You need to OFA, hips and elbows, you need to title your dog. Now you've managed to sink many thousands of dollars into this little operation and you really think you're going to recoup this money? You aren't. But perhaps one of these puppies ~ depending on how many are born live ~ will go on to be a show ring sensation and help build your name in the Newfie world.. There is also the chance that your dog will need a caesarian to deliver this litter, or no puppies will be born alive........or she'll have severe mastitis...or any number of other things. Are you prepared to spend thousands of dollars to get this litter on the ground? Just so you can add more mediocre dogs to world? And just to put a point on it, the terminology is not "dame", it's "dam". Like I said, you have a LOT to learn.

 

[jessicacharlie]

@erniedavid I understand you are heated, and that's fine I'm not understanding the abject hostility.

Sure, dam. Cool, sorry for not using correct terminology. I will going forward.

If you want to know the exact reason I'm interested in breeding dogs, it's not because of the money, and I really don't care about making money from this.
Honestly, I want people to experience the same joy that I do from my dog.

I'm in a unique situation right now, about to be discharged medically from the military. The money I received as compensation for injuries sustained would be what is used to go forward in whatever way I decided.... check my edits for where my mind is now

More of an angel investor situation, instead of some greedy puppy mill enterprise.

ALL THAT SAID.
Yes I'm aware of the breed standards, and where to find them, however yes, more knowledge and experience is needed (I'll be contacting newfoundland specific clubs and breeders like I mentioned elsewhere)

Yes, you are right hips, joints, and many other health items and screenings are important. I'm nit debating you on that.

A profesional to help with delivery- of course. This was stated in the original post.

And yes you are right! Registered dogs come with lineage information, and I do believe this is worth it.

 

[donnags1964]

@jessicacharlie I believe your heart is in the right place and you seem to love this breed. I would use this time to reach out and network in the Newfie community. Attend local dog shows and build relationships with the Newfie breeders. Explain how and why you love this breed and find ways to help out. IMO, mentorship via co-ownership is the best route when wanting to establish your own kennel. The knowledge & support a mentor can provide is as good as gold.

You mentioned you are in the process of adopting a 8 week old female- is this from the same breeder of your 11 month old? Would she also be unregistered? If so- I recommend holding off on bringing another puppy into your life until you are able to purchase from an ethical breeder willing to co-own and mentor.

 

[jessicacharlie]

@donnags1964 I'm nolonger going ahead with the puppy.

The pup is unregistered and from a different breeder without any connections to my current pup, so inbreeding risks would have been very low. However after reading everything I have other plans.

I'll let them know to keep their deposit. I'm going to go the CanadianKC /AmericanKC route instead.