What happens to the dogs that you don't breed?

[revstockton]

I'm interested in breeding but I can't wrap my head around the flow of dogs. I used to breed ducks and it was all so simple, I just ate the ones that didn't meet my standards. With dogs that isn't really an option. Pretty much all of what I am thinking about applies to males, but I'm going to focus on the female side of the equation.

Let's say that I had a breeding female. If she has 3 litters of 6 dogs each, that is 18 total puppies that she will produce. On average, 9 will be female, and 9 will be male. In order to sustain the dog population one of her daughters needs to become a breeding female. Since the human population is growing, the dog population needs to keep up. So my female should produce a daughter for me to keep breeding from, and a daughter for another breeder to breed from. The other 7 females would be spayed before they reproduce. This is all on average of course, an exceptional dam might produce several daughters that go on to have litters of their own, while many others will have all of their daughters get spayed.

So out of the 9 female puppies that are born, what is the path that one of them takes to joining the next generation of my breeding program? Obviously it starts with not selling the puppies that look promising. I see a lot of information about screening for bone structure that can't happen until two years old, plus there are other factors (personality, etc...) that might not show up initially. What percentage of promising puppies end up breeding? What happens to the females that I don't end up breeding? I don't want to end up with too many dogs.

I see breeder websites where people have like 6 females and 2 males. What happens to the neutered prospects? Does these breeders also have half a dozen neutered dogs hanging around?

 

[mark0086]

@revstockton Reputable breeders have waiting lists of folks looking for show puppies and pet puppies. Pet quality go to families for their lives as lovely pets. Show quality puppies go to show homes and are sent to the show ring, hunt field etc. to title and prove their worth for future breeding.

We evaluate our puppies at a very young age. Two years old is when we do the overall health testing to determine if the bitch/dog doesn't have issues that could be passed onto their puppies.

I have a team that comes over when my pups are 7 weeks old and we stack them up and go over them for proper conformation etc. Markings are important in my breed also. By that age I also have an idea of who has a brave personality and who may be too soft for the show ring or hunt field.

I normally keep two breeding females and a stud dog. The most I've ever had at one time was 3 females and one stud dog. I know other breeders that have half a dozen females and a couple of studs on site. They have the room to keep them separated and safe from unwanted breedings. I don't have that much room, which is probably a good thing lol!

I breed large breed. I send my pet puppies home with a contract that they are to be spayed/neutered and the proof must be provided to me. I ask all of them to wait until they are at least 18 months of age to allow their skeletal structures to develop properly. Doing so can help a dog so much in their later years as age takes a toll.

Some breeders keep spayed/neutered dogs throughout their lives as pure sofa pets. I've spayed bitches later after they have had their litters and they spend the rest of their lives with me. If I don't have room to keep a great show prospect female from a litter I make sure she will go to an approved show home with a friend.

 

[revstockton]

@mark0086

Show quality puppies go to show homes and are sent to the show ring, hunt field etc. to title and prove their worth for future breeding.

Let's imagine that I buy one of your show-quality puppies. After a few years I find out that it is worth breeding. What if I just enjoy shows and don't want to be a breeder? What if the opposite happens: I want to be a breeder by the puppy that you sold me doesn't work out?

I normally keep two breeding females and a stud dog.

Did you acquire your dogs from someone like yourself? What if you got dogs that weren't suitable for breeding? Then you would have three pets and you wouldn't be a breeder?

I send my pet puppies home with a contract that they are to be spayed/neutered and the proof must be provided to me.

How would you enforce such a thing? Do you repossess their dogs? That seems kind of harsh.

 

[mark0086]

@revstockton I pay for the testing at two years of age on these show puppies. If they pass they will be bred. That’s why my show puppies only go to serious show homes, mostly people I already know. If you don’t want to breed I’m not going to force the issue. But I will encourage you to keep showing and having fun with your dog.

I’ve had dogs from other breeders over the years to improve my lines, and some of my dogs are ones I’ve bred. If a dog doesn’t pass their health testing that’s life, it happens. I may place that dog in a pet home to make room in my program for another dog.

I stay in touch with all my puppy people. If someone decides to breed a dog with limited registration then I can take action by not letting the litter be registered. I ask for certificate of spay or neuter when the time comes. I haven’t had issues with this before. No I won’t repossess their dog, however everyone in our breeds community will be warned that those puppies aren’t registered and it was a breeding that was not sanctioned. They will probably have a very hard time getting rid of those puppies. Especially in a breed as rare as mine. We all know who’s who and what breedings are legitimate.

I carefully screen new puppy buyers so this type of stuff doesn’t happen. I’ve had to deal with an accidental breeding of a pet puppy before, the owners were devastated and let me know immediately. The bitch was taken in for a spay/abort and all was well. I even paid for it. Since I insist that my owners wait for maturity prior to spay neuter it was just something I wanted to help them with. It’s not easy having an intact bitch and dealing with her seasons.

 

[revstockton]

@mark0086 Thanks for the information.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@mark0086 What breed? Just curious

 

[mark0086]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Gordon setters

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@revstockton im assuming they would get rehomed, same as the puppies who don't move further in the program

that said, i know it can happen where you end up with more dogs than you thought because one or two people return the puppies that they got, this happened to my neighbor and she ended up just keeping the puppy

 

[girlingrace]

@revstockton I have a waiting list of over 100 families. Any of them would jump at the chance of a puppy for a pet.

 

[meg88]

@revstockton Starting off you’re going to want a puppy from a reputable breeder who health tests and titles the parents proving breed standard and has a contract and health guarantee with Return to Breeder for any reason you can’t care for your dog regardless of age.

Once you’ve got full registration (usually done on Co-owning) your breeder will be your mentor, you’re going to want to start showing at 6 months of age in confirmation shows if your pup is AKC Registered, (continuing that till you get your GCH title or max out on titles).

But you will also need to do OFA health testing, Genetics don’t change so that’s the first you should do from wisdom, embark, which OFA Will take, then you can get preliminary results for Hips and elbows, but no one reputable breeds under 24 months of age. Breeders (reputable ones anyway) don’t hand out full registration on every single puppy, you’ve got your future show prospects and then just your regular companion (Pet) dogs, who are sold on a spay/neuter contract and a return to Breeder clause.
You need to make sure you’re promoting for future litters Upcoming studs and have a Wait list started before you even decide to breed. (If you show chances are breeders who you’re showing with will want on your wait list especially if your Stud or Bitch wins against theirs in confirmation).

NOW when your retiring your breeding stock, which is when you spay/neuter I personally keep my retired dogs as they are mine and I love them, But there are bigger kennels than mine that once they are Spayed/neutered they are ReHomed for a small fee to people on a wait list for Retired breeding dogs to have as pets, or made available to anyone who passes a screening process.

As for how many dogs you’re wanting that purely depends on how much property and house space you have (None of my dogs are outside in kennels and are in the home in their own rooms).

Keep in mind you’re not truly making bank on being a breeder for the first 3-4 years starting out when you take into consideration, Costs depending on state if you need a Breeders license to sell puppies in your state, then the Cost of having a attorney write up contracts for you, then the cost to Health test all breeding dogs, Cost to travel to confirmation shows with motel stays, vetting your dogs, Food for all your dogs and puppies you’ll have, welping supplies, vetting of your breeding stock and their puppies, goodie bags they will be sent home with, taking puppies or dogs back if the owner can’t take care of them, websites you’re having built, stud banners made, Litter announcement banners made,the list goes on.
Then (like now) we had a puppy boom, when Covid hit and everyone was wanting a puppy, then once everything was opened back up hundreds of puppies were “up for ReHoming” or being taken back to breeders for “lack of time to care for them, or had to go back to work”.
I’m lucky enough I’ve not had a Return to Breeder puppy, but I carefully screen all my applicants and require a pup date every 6 months for the entire life of every pup I produce.

 

[dukedesu]

@revstockton Well, there's only a few ways that this can go for breeders. Breeders can either keep everyone and sometimes end up with quite a few dogs, or they can breed less than they might have intended otherwise, or they can re-home adults and washouts. Or they can do some combination of the above, or perhaps they utilize co-owns to be able to breed more girls that they can't keep in house.

Obviously pet puppies go somewhere else, but sometimes breeders grow out a few and re-home young dogs which I think is a good strategy particularly for someone who isn't breeding a lot of litters. Breeders might re-home some young/middle aged adults who don't pass health tests or for other reasons just didn't meet the bar. Personally, I re-homed one recently who had no place being bred, but someone near me was looking for a Saluki puppy and I didn't have one available, so I let them try her out and it was a win-win. I have another (now) elderly male neutered dog I kept who was never bred. He wouldn't have done well anywhere else. I have a couple more girls in my house, one who will probably stay forever, and one who may not. I have a young male now who I am showing a lot and will probably show a long time, so he'll probably stay for good.

 

[revstockton]

@dukedesu Thanks for the information.

 

[silverchain]

@revstockton My partner breeds pointing labs. He has many females and only 4 studs. He works on a very long waiting list. Sometimes he has puppies that people on the waiting list have decided to wait, but he always has someone on the list ready for a puppy. In the rare occasion he doesn’t sell a puppy and it’s not one he wants to add to his breeding program, he finds a loving home and gives the puppy to a family for free. He works closely with local vets and rescues to place older dogs that he no longer breeds into homes. He has them spayed or neutered first. On his dime. It helps protect his genetics.

All of his dogs are genetically tested, eyes, hips, elbows before they can be trained fully and titled in pointing in various hunt tests. He then breeds them. If they don’t pass testing or do well in the hunt tests, he has them spayed or neutered and sells them as what they are…full disclosure. He takes back any dog that the owner feels they need to surrender. He’s been working this way for 17 years. He’s very respected as a breeder.

 

[revstockton]

@silverchain

He works closely with local vets and rescues to place older dogs that he no longer breeds into homes.

If they don’t pass testing or do well in the hunt tests, he has them spayed or neutered and sells them as what they are…full disclosure.

Thanks for the information.