Using a leash to check a dogs commitment to a position

[kpd]

Hello, fellow dog enthusiasts!

I recently encountered a training technique employed by trainers like Shield K9 and another showcased in a video link, which involves using a leash to test a dog's commitment to a commanded position, such as a sit-stay. The method involves applying pulling pressure on the leash; if the dog resists the pull while maintaining its position, it receives a reward.

This raises a question for me: Could this approach potentially confuse the dog? I've always taught my dogs to respond to leash pressure by yielding, which seems at odds with resisting pressure as described. Does this technique contradict the principle of teaching dogs to yield to leash pressure, or am I misunderstanding the concept?

Would love to hear your thoughts and any experiences with this training method. Thanks in advance!

 

[justjem]

@kpd So this is something I do with the service dogs I work with. We do this to proof their sit/down/stay behaviors. We will have them hold their commands and instruct a stranger to try to pick up their leash and pull them slightly, but they are not to get up and move until their handler gives them the specific command word they have chosen. Usually "free" and we proof that by saying a bunch of random similar words and they learn to only actually release on "free".

When I work with pet dogs I generally work with leash pressure like you are talking about rather than the other method because owners find it easier to figure out.

 

[kpd]

@justjem Service dogs, interesting. Thank you

 

[jayre]

@kpd I’ve found this to be very useful to proof commands and is oddly quite intuitive for the dog. One thing to remember is that this is done when the dog is under command, so you have told them to do something and they should already understand that they aren’t supposed to stop until you release them. This tests that commitment to the command.

This could of course be more confusing for the dog is they have a weak concept of the command. Be sure to only introduce this type of work once the dog already knows what is expected of them.

 

[kpd]

@jayre I figured this was for proofing, thanks!

 

[tiavina]

@kpd We did it at a new school last weekend, 1st attempt no issue. My dog somehow knew it was being tested on the down command.

 

[kpd]

@tiavina

We did it at a new school last weekend, 1st attempt no issue. My dog somehow knew it was being tested on the down command.

I tested it on mine and it seemed like he just knew when to fight it and when not to.

 

[quaheem]

@kpd You’re tapping what we call opposition reflex and it is very valid. Command a sit, then very gentle pressure pulling them to a stand and they hold, you reward confirming they were doing what you wanted and reinforcing it. The opposition reflex is just that, a reflex. It’s also not a pull like you’re dragging them, it’s more a little nag, tap tap. They will instinctively resist and you reward.

Very useful. It also teaches them that they should maintain a behaviour in the face of distraction, such as stay you see the rabbit run past (although this wouldn’t override that level of distraction).

Shield k9 puts out some good videos, but always evaluate what you see online or even in person. I’ve been to their facility to work a reactive dog and found their program barbaric, dangerous, and ridiculous. I fully embrace all tools, including ecollars and prongs. Everyone should judge for themselves, but I would not trust my dog to their training, nor would I trust a dog from them.

 

[kpd]

@quaheem

You’re tapping what we call opposition reflex and it is very valid. Command a sit, then very gentle pressure pulling them to a stand and they hold, you reward confirming they were doing what you wanted and reinforcing it. The opposition reflex is just that, a reflex. It’s also not a pull like you’re dragging them, it’s more a little nag, tap tap. They will instinctively resist and you reward.

That makes sense! I don't know why I didn't think about opposition reflex lol. Thank you

 

[jaenalyn]

@quaheem

I’ve been to their facility to work a reactive dog and found their program barbaric, dangerous, and ridiculous.

This doesn't surprise me one bit

 

[mysticalmiracle]

@kpd Honestly each to their own, I teach yielding to leash pressure so if needs be I can offer guidance to my dog.

I also feel that if I tug on a leash its on purpose like to get my dog to move, the last thing I want is resistance.

I proof my behaviours by doing stupid stuff like pretending to run away, dancing, acting like an idiot basically, toys etc.

Don't get me wrong this probably does work but for the average dog owner I think it adds too many confusing steps and mechanics to a puzzle they already struggle with ,

 

[bernard05]

@kpd It’s not for pet training. Using opposition reflex to lock in positions for out of motion exercises or change of position exercises is for competition.

And there are a lot of environmental cues for the dog so it doesn’t bleed over into loose leash walking in every day life. We use collar selection, how we put the collar on, warm ups, and verbal cues as well before we take the training field. They know the difference.

 

[kpd]

@bernard05

And there are a lot of environmental cues for the dog so it doesn’t bleed over into loose leash walking in every day life. We use collar selection, how we put the collar on, warm ups, and verbal cues as well before we take the training field. They know the difference.

Interesting. I would have to agree. I haven't seen many people that don't compete using this. Could you elaborate on the cues you use and how you differentiate it.

 

[bernard05]

@kpd My process.

Collar “charge up” starts with back tie on a quick release harness (I love the Brilliant K9 harness with the speed buckle for this) and approaching while jangling a fur saver as I approach. Fur saver gets slipped over the head and harness released and puppy gets a reward ball. I build this until the release goes straight into pushing me around for a few steps before the ball is popped.

Now the puppy is eager to have the fur saver slipped over the head AND the fur saver = work.

When I start using a prong I have it, too, loose enough to slip over the head. That’s when I also introduce a “pop and play” game.

These things are only used for IGP training. Normal life = flat collar and zero excitement built to put it on. Or a hidden pinch if I need to work on some unwanted social behaviors.

My verbal cues are built at the same time. “Ready?” And I reward for any vocalizing in response until I have built barking. Then I use sustained barking to “bark me onto the field.”

None of these cues presage every day life stuff. Working collars are for work. Etc. I don’t build excitement for regular life stuff, either. My affect is flat for everything from nail grinding to loading up in their travel crates.

 

[kyfisher1]

@kpd dogs are exceptional at pattern recognition. You can teach a dog to resist leash pressure when in a sit/stay while also teaching that same dog to yield to leash pressure when walking. they can distinguish the pattern of the action being performed.

 

[jaenalyn]

@kpd Checking is a common practice in professional training. So common that there are tools named after it: check cord, check chain, etc.

I would argue that "leash pressure" training is actually what is potentially confusing to a dog. They come in with a built in opposition instinct that "leash pressure" training seeks to overcome. I find that it's quicker and less confusing to simply teach the dog to be responsible for maintaining a loose leash instead of constantly have to respond to nagging "leash pressure."

If you taught your dog to always yield to "leash pressure" than checking a stay might be a little confusing at first but just guide the dog through to what you want

 

[amd358]

@kpd It should be dependent on who is handling the dog, but this is a common drill. I'll have a handler put the dog in a position, then have someone unknown try to coax the dog out of position, usually not with a leash but that's a good addition.

 

[kpd]

@amd358 Got it, thanks!

 

[amd358]

@kpd Thank you actually! We tried some of this at training today and will definitely be using this drill going forward.

 

[kpd]

@amd358 I'm glad haha.