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Rhode Island Dog Owner Beware: K9 Instincts Board-to-Train
- Thread starter jk100991
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- reactive dogs resource
@jk100991 I’m sorry to hear about how much damage this facility has done. I am thankful to people like you for sharing your stories though, as it made me much more wary of what to look for when I sought out training for my dog. Reading this reminded me that I wanted to go leave a positive review to help guide people in their search. I am glad that you’ve found methods that are improving your situation. Best of luck to you and your dog.
@jk100991 I'm so sorry you experienced this and that your poor pup had to go through that. As a force free trainer, I see stories like this all the time, and it breaks my heart. I wish people were more educated about force free vs aversive dog training methods, but it seems we cannot drown out the voices of the uneducated trainers who claim their methods work quickly and offer clients guarantees. As much as we have advanced the science of understanding animals and their emotional lives, as a species, we do not seem to be able to break free from the old schools of thought where it was believed that the only way to effectively train an animal was to dominate it and then not worry about inflicting abuse on them because "they don't feel pain." It doesn't help that there are all these "celebrity trainers" who convince people that their methods are quick and effective. Sadly, sensation sells, so when someone l like CM provokes dogs to bark and lunge at him or even bite him, people eat it up and it makes money for the network. True force free training is often boring because we are constantly working to NOT provoke the dog into practicing an unwanted behavior and becoming stressed out and uncomfortable. That does not make good television. Honestly, I have no idea how to get the message out that people should be meeting their dogs' needs instead of punishing them for being "bad" or "stubborn" or "willful" or "defiant." Dogs are none of these things. I feel frustration and sadness every single day, yet I'm doing my best to at least make a difference in my own clients' lives and the lives of their dogs.
@jk100991 Ugh, I’m sorry to hear that.
When my boy was a young pup I signed up for a two-session puppy training thing with a local guy I had found online. His videos were largely good—stuff like dogs seeing hands as the same thing as their mouths—and he seemed anti-aversive, but when I showed up to the first session he put my poor pup in a plastic pronged training collar to get him to stop barking (a fact I didn’t realize until I got home) and did stuff like throw rolls of tape at dogs to discipline them (so the punishment was from the object, not the person). He referred to several other aversive methods positively during the sessions. I mean, his methods worked… but I was definitely uncomfortable with the methodology once I realized what was going on. Definitely not the right training match for my own stubborn/sensitive pup.
When my boy was a young pup I signed up for a two-session puppy training thing with a local guy I had found online. His videos were largely good—stuff like dogs seeing hands as the same thing as their mouths—and he seemed anti-aversive, but when I showed up to the first session he put my poor pup in a plastic pronged training collar to get him to stop barking (a fact I didn’t realize until I got home) and did stuff like throw rolls of tape at dogs to discipline them (so the punishment was from the object, not the person). He referred to several other aversive methods positively during the sessions. I mean, his methods worked… but I was definitely uncomfortable with the methodology once I realized what was going on. Definitely not the right training match for my own stubborn/sensitive pup.
@jk100991 Thank you for warning others out there. I’ve considered writing a review of the dog trainer who told me to use harsh corrections on my reactive puppy, which obviously made her way worse, but I don’t want to deal with the drama that I’m sure would follow.
It’s so upsetting to me how many “professionals” out there tell owners to hurt their dogs while using misleading language like “gentle correction” and “stimulation.” I wish they would be upfront about their methods, why they work (because they do work in some ways, but cause a lot of fallout as well), and what the risks of their methods are. But I guess it wouldn’t be good for business if they said “we hurt your dog when he reacts so he’s afraid to react in the future!”
It’s so upsetting to me how many “professionals” out there tell owners to hurt their dogs while using misleading language like “gentle correction” and “stimulation.” I wish they would be upfront about their methods, why they work (because they do work in some ways, but cause a lot of fallout as well), and what the risks of their methods are. But I guess it wouldn’t be good for business if they said “we hurt your dog when he reacts so he’s afraid to react in the future!”
@jk100991 I've read nothing but bad things about most of the board and train places including OFF LEASH K9. You should be able to take your dog to obedience classes and then do daily training at home. I've had att 10 of the most dangerous dogs in the world and they all turned out just fine. The one that would make people shit their pants was my caucasian shepherd. But that's what I needed when I lived in Manhattan in the 70s. There's a book I like and use even now. DOG TRAINING FOR KIDS. I also have ecollars for my dogs but took the shock prongs off and only use the beep and vibration. It also has lights that you can turn on up to a half a mile away. I hope your dog regains his spirit.
imagebeastmarkbeast
New member
@ledoman Basically maximum positive reinforcement. Reward the behavior you want to see rather than punishing the behavior you do not want. The reason for this approach being favored when it comes to reactive dogs is most of their behavior is fear and insecurity based and punishment just enhances that insecurity. The key is rewarding and reinforcing positively when they are below their fear thresholds so they can keep a learning mindset.
A decent overview of the P/R +- concept https://www.dentlersdogtraining.com/the-truth-about-positive-reinforcement.html
A decent overview of the P/R +- concept https://www.dentlersdogtraining.com/the-truth-about-positive-reinforcement.html
@imagebeastmarkbeast Thanks!
@jk100991 I'm so sorry this happened to your dog and to you.
I was considering board and trains for my reactive dog at one point, and reading this makes me very glad I decided against it, but we definitely made training mistakes with our reactive guy.
We did use a zap collar for a period of time, and I really regret it, it definitely worsened his reactivity and created more fear around dogs. And that was not even using it on a high setting, a lot of the time we'd just use the beep.
What a shit situation, thanks for trying to make other aware.
I was considering board and trains for my reactive dog at one point, and reading this makes me very glad I decided against it, but we definitely made training mistakes with our reactive guy.
We did use a zap collar for a period of time, and I really regret it, it definitely worsened his reactivity and created more fear around dogs. And that was not even using it on a high setting, a lot of the time we'd just use the beep.
What a shit situation, thanks for trying to make other aware.
stephen_nz
New member
@jk100991 Hey OP - I’m a psychologist and professor so I like to think I have a pretty solid background in behaviourism and the impacts of reinforcement and punishment.
Here’s the thing with using punishers for learning - it doesn’t teach the correct behaviour that should be done in place of the incorrect behaviour. So for example, if Fido jumps and the shock collar goes off, Fido doesn’t understand what he’s supposed to do instead of jumping. Confusion leads to faulty associations. This may be one of the reasons your dog was so - forgive the word - traumatized when YOU used the same painful device in your home that the bad man used in the bad place. That’s an association he hasn’t had before.
Now here’s the thing I really want to tell you, punishers stop deterring behaviour when the punisher is removed. So the regression you noticed once the collar came off was entirely predictable. Think of the raptors in Jurassic park. Everyday they tested the electric fence, and once the power was shut off and the electric fence no longer shocked the raptors, the fence stopped effectively deterring their behaviour and they escaped and bad things happened.
There’s one last thing I want to tell you about reinforcement - negative reinforcement is a stronger predictor of behaviour than positive reinforcement. What does this mean? Well imagine you want Fido to get off the sofa. Option one, you show Fido a treat and tell him to come. He does, and you give him a treat. What you did was ADD something good in order to encourage Fido’s behaviour. Now Option two: you want Fido to get off the couch, so you light the couch on fire. Fido is getting burned and obviously hates it, so he gets off the couch very quickly. The behaviour (getting off the sofa) is encouraged because Fido wants to REMOVE the awful feeling of being burned. Any animal -human, dog, pig, monkey, you name it, will seek to remove pain before it does anything else. In fact, Fido might have hated being burned so much that the sight of other sofas creates an anxious state.
So your Fido wants to stop the pain of the collar, more than he wants to listen to you. The training he received and the e-collar haven’t increased the understanding and communication between you and your dog.
One last thing, last night I was watching Pablo Escobar, the movie with Penelope Cruz. There is a scene where Pablo’s gang is torturing another drug lord by using a dog. They tie the dog to the man, and instead of hurting the man, they hurt the dog. The dog, in his pain, begins to panic and when he can’t get away from the source of the pain, he begins to bite and scratch the nearest person, which is the prisoner the dog was tied to. I think this is a great example of why your dog got more anxious, not less anxious, when the collar was being used repeatedly in front of the other dog.
Anyways. Sorry to nerd out but I though this might provide some of the scientific research that guides (or misguides) animal trainers. Feel free to msg if you have any other questions.
Punishment is a highly effective tool for shaping behaviour, but it won’t create safety, it won’t enhance communication, it’s not reliable, and it’s not a long term solution.
Here’s the thing with using punishers for learning - it doesn’t teach the correct behaviour that should be done in place of the incorrect behaviour. So for example, if Fido jumps and the shock collar goes off, Fido doesn’t understand what he’s supposed to do instead of jumping. Confusion leads to faulty associations. This may be one of the reasons your dog was so - forgive the word - traumatized when YOU used the same painful device in your home that the bad man used in the bad place. That’s an association he hasn’t had before.
Now here’s the thing I really want to tell you, punishers stop deterring behaviour when the punisher is removed. So the regression you noticed once the collar came off was entirely predictable. Think of the raptors in Jurassic park. Everyday they tested the electric fence, and once the power was shut off and the electric fence no longer shocked the raptors, the fence stopped effectively deterring their behaviour and they escaped and bad things happened.
There’s one last thing I want to tell you about reinforcement - negative reinforcement is a stronger predictor of behaviour than positive reinforcement. What does this mean? Well imagine you want Fido to get off the sofa. Option one, you show Fido a treat and tell him to come. He does, and you give him a treat. What you did was ADD something good in order to encourage Fido’s behaviour. Now Option two: you want Fido to get off the couch, so you light the couch on fire. Fido is getting burned and obviously hates it, so he gets off the couch very quickly. The behaviour (getting off the sofa) is encouraged because Fido wants to REMOVE the awful feeling of being burned. Any animal -human, dog, pig, monkey, you name it, will seek to remove pain before it does anything else. In fact, Fido might have hated being burned so much that the sight of other sofas creates an anxious state.
So your Fido wants to stop the pain of the collar, more than he wants to listen to you. The training he received and the e-collar haven’t increased the understanding and communication between you and your dog.
One last thing, last night I was watching Pablo Escobar, the movie with Penelope Cruz. There is a scene where Pablo’s gang is torturing another drug lord by using a dog. They tie the dog to the man, and instead of hurting the man, they hurt the dog. The dog, in his pain, begins to panic and when he can’t get away from the source of the pain, he begins to bite and scratch the nearest person, which is the prisoner the dog was tied to. I think this is a great example of why your dog got more anxious, not less anxious, when the collar was being used repeatedly in front of the other dog.
Anyways. Sorry to nerd out but I though this might provide some of the scientific research that guides (or misguides) animal trainers. Feel free to msg if you have any other questions.
Punishment is a highly effective tool for shaping behaviour, but it won’t create safety, it won’t enhance communication, it’s not reliable, and it’s not a long term solution.
@stephen_nz
This is really interesting, especially since a lot of the time when people are very pro-aversive they say it because it "increases communication". I've always wondered, what are you communicating and is it true communication if you aren't listening to your dog as well? Reactive behaviors are absolutely communication on the dog's part and if we just suppress those behaviors without listening/acknowledging their roots I'd argue that true communication is not happening at all.
So your Fido wants to stop the pain of the collar, more than he wants to listen to you. The training he received and the e-collar haven’t increased the understanding and communication between you and your dog.
This is really interesting, especially since a lot of the time when people are very pro-aversive they say it because it "increases communication". I've always wondered, what are you communicating and is it true communication if you aren't listening to your dog as well? Reactive behaviors are absolutely communication on the dog's part and if we just suppress those behaviors without listening/acknowledging their roots I'd argue that true communication is not happening at all.
@jk100991 Trainers like that give balanced training and board and train programs a bad name.
I urge anyone considering any type of training to do extensive research, talk to people who have use those services, familiarize yourself with methods and tools being used, and actually see the trainer working dogs in person before letting anyone touch your dog.
I also made a mistake with a local trainer (Off Leash K9 franchise) and it was a horrible experience for my dog and I. Luckily it was only a 1 hour private lesson but that was enough time to set back our training and relationship significantly.
Before I sent my dogs to my current trainers board and train program I did more research on her program than on my literal masters thesis lol. It took me almost 6 months of group classes, online research, volunteering with her program, trial boarding weekend, and pack walks to commit to a 3 week board and train. And it was a magical experience for my dog and I. Seriously life changing. So much so my family has now put 5 dogs through her program.
I urge anyone considering any type of training to do extensive research, talk to people who have use those services, familiarize yourself with methods and tools being used, and actually see the trainer working dogs in person before letting anyone touch your dog.
I also made a mistake with a local trainer (Off Leash K9 franchise) and it was a horrible experience for my dog and I. Luckily it was only a 1 hour private lesson but that was enough time to set back our training and relationship significantly.
Before I sent my dogs to my current trainers board and train program I did more research on her program than on my literal masters thesis lol. It took me almost 6 months of group classes, online research, volunteering with her program, trial boarding weekend, and pack walks to commit to a 3 week board and train. And it was a magical experience for my dog and I. Seriously life changing. So much so my family has now put 5 dogs through her program.
newlifeeternally
New member
@theflower Can I ask what trainer you used for board and train?
@jk100991 I’m so sorry you had this experience but I’m glad you guys were able to find what works for you. There’s nothing worse than trusting someone to take care of your dog and then abusing them under the guise of training. I personally use an ecollar on my dog and it’s been working great for us so far but I 100% understand what you mean by suppressing the reaction. I love analyzing dog behavior and make sure to address the cause of my boys reactions along with the ecollar training
@nearu I disagree with using ecollars, but I do think it’s important to know how they work. If someone understands how and why they work and what the risks and fallout is and chooses to use them… at least they’re going in with clear eyes.
As you’ve alluded to, ecollars work by using suppression. If my dog is afraid of getting zapped, she may not bark at another dog. However, the core reason she was barking in the first place (fear, overexcitement, anxiety, etc) has not been addressed. All I’ve done is added a layer of fear on top of that core reason. This is why the dog reverts back to their previous behavior when you take the collar off. They are no longer afraid of being punished, so they’re expressing their feeling again.
Aside from the collar being a bandaid solution, the real risk is what OP talked about - worsening the initial problem. Maybe my dog was afraid of other dogs to begin with. If I zap her when she expresses that fear (barking), she learns that barking = shock. However, she also learns seeing another dog = shock. (She may also learn that I am the source of that shock, which will erode the trust in our relationship.)
Now I have a dog who is afraid of other dogs, afraid of being shocked, and has built up the association between seeing another dog and pain. Maybe she doesn’t express it because she’s afraid, but all those feelings are still there.
I think something people may not understand is that the behavior the dog is exhibiting is a symptom of a deeper issue. Aversives work to stop the behavior, but they don’t address the deeper issue.
As you’ve alluded to, ecollars work by using suppression. If my dog is afraid of getting zapped, she may not bark at another dog. However, the core reason she was barking in the first place (fear, overexcitement, anxiety, etc) has not been addressed. All I’ve done is added a layer of fear on top of that core reason. This is why the dog reverts back to their previous behavior when you take the collar off. They are no longer afraid of being punished, so they’re expressing their feeling again.
Aside from the collar being a bandaid solution, the real risk is what OP talked about - worsening the initial problem. Maybe my dog was afraid of other dogs to begin with. If I zap her when she expresses that fear (barking), she learns that barking = shock. However, she also learns seeing another dog = shock. (She may also learn that I am the source of that shock, which will erode the trust in our relationship.)
Now I have a dog who is afraid of other dogs, afraid of being shocked, and has built up the association between seeing another dog and pain. Maybe she doesn’t express it because she’s afraid, but all those feelings are still there.
I think something people may not understand is that the behavior the dog is exhibiting is a symptom of a deeper issue. Aversives work to stop the behavior, but they don’t address the deeper issue.
mokuaben08
New member
@jk100991 Oof. Fear is never the way to train reactive pups. My anxious and fearful dog, Millie, was rehomed (to me!) due to not getting a long with the other dogs in her old home and I still keep in contact with her old owner. She is people reactive and gets freaked out about loud noises and sudden movements. Previous owner used Bark Buster methods and training on her, and Im sure the previous owner didn’t know any better. I have been working with positive reinforcement methods only since we got Millie and the difference from when we got her to today is night and day. Her previous owner even agrees that we have done wonders for Millie. Its amazing what some treats, patience and understanding dog body language can do.
@jk100991 The most shut down and fearful foster I had came from a board to train. This poor little guy would pee himself in fear All. The. Time. It was genuinely painful for me to see how terrified he had become. I got him because I had fostered him as an abandoned pup, and he went from me to the family who adopted him. They took him to a board to train, then dupmed him back at the rescueafterwards because he had been 'ruined' as they put it. Gosh it still makes me angry to think of it. I had a good bond with him already, and he reacted positively to me when I saw him back at the rescue. It took 18 months to get him back to being comfortable and able to do the basic commands he had left me with.
It may be because of that experience, and I absolutely KNOW I am biased, but I would never take my own dog to a board and train due to it.
It may be because of that experience, and I absolutely KNOW I am biased, but I would never take my own dog to a board and train due to it.
@jk100991 I am in Rhode Island and have heard similar feedback from people. I decided not to let them train my dog after the evaluation, which I found be extremely provocative and not educational whatsoever. He did the same. He collar sales pitch, and I walked away and never looked back and my dog turned out great with another private trainer.
I also have friends who were taught by K9 Instincts to rely on the E collar for the training to actually have any lasting effects. The husband blames his wife for any failings and for when she decides not to use the E collar and being off and so they always put the e-collar on the dog to ensure obedience, which isn’t sound that training in my opinion.
I believe they also had a fire in which a bunch of clients dogs were killed at their first location and after that happened I lost my regard for them as professionals. They changed locations after that and were trying to rebuild their reputation but I would never take my dog there.
Edit: I’d say post your review on google anyway. Them being dismissive and arrogant shows their true quality.
I also have friends who were taught by K9 Instincts to rely on the E collar for the training to actually have any lasting effects. The husband blames his wife for any failings and for when she decides not to use the E collar and being off and so they always put the e-collar on the dog to ensure obedience, which isn’t sound that training in my opinion.
I believe they also had a fire in which a bunch of clients dogs were killed at their first location and after that happened I lost my regard for them as professionals. They changed locations after that and were trying to rebuild their reputation but I would never take my dog there.
Edit: I’d say post your review on google anyway. Them being dismissive and arrogant shows their true quality.
@jk100991 This is an astonishing sad and brave post
I am so sad for the OP
What is it about a certain type of person how they see and abuse dogs?
What is wrong with dog training that this is flourishing in some countries?
I live in the UK and while I believe these collars and board and trains are here they are most certainly not mainstream and would not register as in any way normal for an inexperienced dog owner
I have never seen these collars ever
I do hear about "corrections" and treats are bad but these are generally middle aged and older people
Even the slip leads that some talk about here and some youtube trainers use aren't favoured and certainly warned against by vets
I really really worry that the so called " balanced training" will make a comeback with the rise of youtube and ticktok trainer and the push to instant results and will lead inexperienced trying their best owner astray
I hope it doesn't go further into popularising the type of situations that the poor OP is talking about
I hope things get better for you and your dog OP
I am so sad for the OP
What is it about a certain type of person how they see and abuse dogs?
What is wrong with dog training that this is flourishing in some countries?
I live in the UK and while I believe these collars and board and trains are here they are most certainly not mainstream and would not register as in any way normal for an inexperienced dog owner
I have never seen these collars ever
I do hear about "corrections" and treats are bad but these are generally middle aged and older people
Even the slip leads that some talk about here and some youtube trainers use aren't favoured and certainly warned against by vets
I really really worry that the so called " balanced training" will make a comeback with the rise of youtube and ticktok trainer and the push to instant results and will lead inexperienced trying their best owner astray
I hope it doesn't go further into popularising the type of situations that the poor OP is talking about
I hope things get better for you and your dog OP
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