Pacing/walking around in crate, pushy behavior?

[lovelife34]

Hey guys! I have a 2 year old male Maltese who suffers from separation anxiety. He also is a recovering frustrated greeter. We’ve been using leash pressure & mostly balanced training for the majority of his training, but follow a purely R+ subthreshold method for his separation anxiety. He is crate trained to sleep in his crate at night for about 8 hours every night, and we’re working on leaving him alone in his crate during the day (he’s gotten up to 4-5 hours in the afternoons after being properly exercised of course). I’d say he tolerates the crate but definitely don’t love it as much as I’d like him to. He doesn’t really go in it during the day, but sleeps belly up in his crate at night/during the day.

Since we moved, I’ve noticed that he started exhibiting these behavior where he would wake up and start doing 1-2 rounds of pacing in his crate, then lie down for a few minutes, then repeat. I took it as a sign that he reached threshold and wanted to be let out so I did let him out when I see him doing that, but he started doing it more. Until one day he did that at 5:30am and I tried to yell “no” through the camera, and it sent him to sleep for another 2:30 hours. This led me to think, could it be that this pacing/pawing behavior is him being pushy and wanting to get out instead of actual anxiety? I tried doing it during the day scenario and it worked too, sending him to lie on his side and fall asleep. I’m really confused because the subthreshold method suggests I let him out immediately as he shows the first sign of anxiety and shouldn’t scare him more when he’s already anxious, but somehow he seems to benefit from some clear correction/boundary setting?

 

[carieinney]

@lovelife34 OP sounds like you are doing everything right. Don’t over think it! The only thing I can think of is I wouldn’t open the crate while he’s pacing, wait and see if he settles then open it. Otherwise if he’s able to self settle … let sleeping dogs lie

 

[lovelife34]

@carieinney Thank you!! I definitely have the problem of overthinking and my husband always tells me that it seems like he’s just self soothing and readjusting himself, and just to let him be I’ll see how this plays out!

 

[davecb]

@lovelife34 Why are you putting him in a crate during the day? Are you home?

If he's crated for 8 hours and now you're looking to crate him during the day, you're going to wind up with a lot of crate hours.

If he needs to be crated during the day when you're not home, you can cover the crate with a light sheet and turn on talk radio before you leave the house.

 

[lovelife34]

@davecb He’s only crates during the day when I’m not home. I’d very much like to leave him free roaming, and we worked on desensitization with him having free access of the entire house, but he does very poorly with that. When he’s left out to free roam and he’s alone, he paces and barks nonstop until I come back. Now we practice crating during the day when I’m gone and it was the only way we could get any sort of progress. If not, he immediately barks and paces as I walk out of the door. His crate is already covered and I play sitcoms for him. I don’t plan to crate him for an entire work day, he is walked three times a day and gets trained on loose leash walking & obedience everyday. Trust me when I say this, I’m trying to get him comfortable outside of the crate when he’s alone, but my school is starting and I needed to make progress for at least a few hours a day. When he’s inside the crate during the day, he usually sleeps the entire time.

 

[cathyj]

@lovelife34 Could be a learned behavior that you have unintentionally "free shaped" Ie - he has learned this this behavior will get him out.

 

[lovelife34]

@cathyj That’s what I’m thinking - he unintentionally learned that he paces, he gets let out. I guess that’s the tricky part, if pacing is him demanding to get out but also a sign of anxiety, how could I tell if he’s reaching his safe alone threshold or just being bratty

 

[cathyj]

@lovelife34 For sure...

Have you considered trying a x-pen? The extra space and ability to put toys and blankets in may help your dog feel calmer during the day.

 

[lovelife34]

@cathyj Sigh, we’ve tried the x-pen before but it seems like he does better with an enclosed space (like a crate completely covered). I’m considering upgrading his crate to an even bigger one, but the one he has right now is already pretty big (an 24 inch crate for a 6pound dog, you can fit 5 of him in there) and he has plenty of blankets and pillows in there. I’ll probably try putting toys in and see how it works out…

 

[halpme]

@lovelife34 Perhaps try a smaller crate, one that he has room to stand up, turn around and lay down in, but not enough to pace. If he did poorly in the xpen and does poorly free roaming, he might need hos space reduced to feel more like a den and less overwhelming.

 

[lovelife34]

@halpme I was thinking that actually, but I’m pretty weary about reducing the space again since he moved a lot in his sleep and likes to change positions & sleep in different spots in the crate. I will probably try it out and see how it is!

 

[dombo]

@lovelife34 My reformed SA dog gets restless for physical comfort reasons and will get up, turn around, and sometimes whine a bunch to try to get comfortable. It just doesn't look at all like anxiety when I watch the video clips my camera sends, but I've figured out he's just not comfy (he's 10 now and getting more particular about what feels good).

First it was his bed that had gotten way broken down and too soft (restless after a couple hours of sleep), in winter he gets a comforter and space heater (restless after ~3 hours), and this year I got him a new personal evaporative cooler (restless after finishing frozen kong, panting after ~3 hours, but not anxiety panting). He's happy enough with his summer setup that he runs to his crate and I hardly ever get motion notifications. In winter I usually just get clips of him rearranging his blanket.

 

[lovelife34]

@dombo This is a good point actually, maybe he’s distressed because he got uncomfortable but not because of anxiety. I’ll try playing around the set up in his crate and see if he does better!

 

[clintpauljohnson]

@lovelife34

I’m really confused because the subthreshold method suggests I let him out immediately as he shows the first sign of anxiety and shouldn’t scare him more when he’s already anxious, but somehow he seems to benefit from some clear correction/boundary setting?

A well-timed correction cuts the anxiety loop. Dog gets a little anxious and starts to pace (or whine, bark, bite the bars, whatever), works himself up more, paces more, and it spirals up and up. A clear boundary that cuts that loop allows the dog to relax.

I don't know if it's really anxiety or a learned behavior to get you to open the crate in your dog's case but it doesn't really matter. Incorporating a fair, well-timed correction into separation anxiety training doesn't mean you'll scare "scare the dog more."

 

[lovelife34]

@clintpauljohnson This is what I come to realize as well after learning more about balanced training. And I do agree with you, he works himself up with these pacing behavior and gets more and more frantic over time. The R+ desensitization method I followed claimed that separation anxiety is a panic disorder and using punishment will lead to backlash, but I honestly don’t see it that way. I think for my dog’s case it was definitely demanding behavior, hence why he does well alone in the crate because crate provides structure & boundaries. However it is very tricky to find out about the correction part. I learned about the ecollar interruption method, but he is not ecollar conditioned yet and we have yet to find a trainer who can help us with that (all of them require us to go through basic obedience with them and we already went through a thorough obedience program with another trainer for a whole year, so it feels very excessive). Without the ecollar, the other correction could be banging on the crate, but timing could be tricky since I’d have to go in & then bang the crate, which might fuzz up the timing. Last thing I could think of is yelling no through the camera, but it’s not always enough as a correction. So I am having a hard time finding the best way to navigate this as wells

 

[clintpauljohnson]

@lovelife34 Sound interrupter like dropping a book or thumping the wall if you’re in another room.

If you’re in the same room I’ve done a squirt bottle. Never used an e collar for this personally but it’s an option.

 

[lovelife34]

@clintpauljohnson Interesting ideas, I’ll try to figure something out! He’s fine when I’m in the room, sometimes whine but will mostly stay quiet. It’s when I’m out of the room/house, and he’s for the most part solid for the first 2-3 hours, but start to struggle around the 3-4 hours mark, so it is a little tricky. Thanks for the advice, will try it out!