Is it just me... I don't "get" dog trainers

[stateemil]

@nadinepeony Hi! Maybe I used the wrong term with R+, but we've only used positive reinforcement trainers that came highly recommended.

Mostly reactivity is what we've worked on, with limited to zero success/progress. The exception being figuring out the best med combo from her behaviorist, but we don't do training with her... It's like $200-150 per consultation, so she gives us advice, but we keep our focus on the meds.

For me, I feel like I haven't found anyone that speaks to me in a way that clicks. They kinda go too fast and any clarification questions I ask don't seem to work as intended. I'm highly educated and hold several advanced degrees. I also love to learn, so I can't figure out what it is. I literally feel like these trainers are really good at their job (with some people/for some dogs), but they are from a different planet vs. the one I'm from.

Generally, the advice is positive and seemingly logical, but often too general/not specific enough. Like they've done it so many times it's too natural for them and they aren't able to put themselves in my shoes. It's seems like suggestions are always over explained in extreme, but not helpful, detail. OR, important, tiny things they know or do naturally or instinctively are not thought about or within their capacity to teach because it's so ingrained in them.

As for how my dog is treated, I feel like her reactvity... I don't know, is seen as kinda annoying by trainers or (on the other extreme) they are sorta dismissive. I also wonder if we have ran into some small dog bias... She's small and therefore training her isn't as big of a deal.

I don't know. Maybe my expectations are just way off. I feel like I try so hard and at the end of the day I feel so alone and unsupported when it comes to her training and training progress. I wish I had a trainer that just sorta 'got me' and my dog a little better. But, even as I type that, I realize how hard that is ... In any aspect of life.

 

[davsunram]

@stateemil I just read this comment and I have nothing helpful to add except that I seriously feel your pain! I also hold advanced degrees and love to learn but definitely experience that strange disconnect between my desire to learn and these trainers’ inability to effectively teach us humans haha.

Our next step is connecting with a veterinarian behaviorist in LA but when we got the contract and saw the initial consultation was $800 we decided to pause before making that jump. We also have our dog on Zoloft 25mg from her regular vet and we’re seeing moderate improvement with positive-reinforcement training only. Hopefully you’re seeing some improvement with meds?

I so resonate with you feeling like you’re trying so hard but feeling alone/unsupported. I feel like I’ve put in so much time & energy trying to help my dog but it’s been a lonely road. Even when I say “we” (me and my fiancé), 95% of the training has been just me. We reactive dog owners genuinely need in-person support groups or something! Lol.

You’re not alone in how you’ve been feeling. This girl in California feels your pain!

 

[stateemil]

@davsunram Thank you for the support! The meds via our (very expensive) behaviorist have been the best solid investment in our training journey. We took pause after two trainers and then the suggestion of a behaviorist by her vet ultimately motivated us.

We also started the basic/common meds with her primary vet, but after several trials and errors (even trying a couple things twice), getting her meds on balance via the behaviorist was an enormous breakthrough.

Anyway, feeling felt. Thank you

 

[nadinepeony]

@stateemil I recommend finding a balanced trainer. Positive only goes so far. Sometimes dogs need to be corrected so that they learn how to perform the obedience you’re asking of them. Treat luring isn’t gonna get them there.

 

[booboo222]

@nadinepeony As someone in rescue and rehab, no dog "requires correction" to learn, however inexperienced trainers do often require it to teach because they lack the necessary skills to properly perform positive reinforcement - those people should definitely not be working with animals though. Recent studies in canine psychology continue to show us that dogs set up to fail and provided with corrections lack the latency as those trained with errorless learning techniques. Could I get results out of a dog using punishment? Of course, fear and pain are the most powerful motivators that exist! However do I also want an engaged and enthusiastic learner to work with? Of course, and why would I use methods that would erode their confidence in me and my instructions as a handler if there were a more humane way to teach them?

Referring to positive reinforcement through counter conditioning and desensitisation as "treat luring" demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of canine psychology - I'd recommend you do some further reading before making any more recommendations of your own

 

[nadinepeony]

@booboo222 Only bad trainers induce fear and pain. A good balanced trainer knows how to correct without inducing either. You don’t seem to understand what corrections are. There are no results for what you’re asking about because it’s not “punishment” it’s literally readjusting positions and shaping behavior. Treat luring is positive training summed up. I know why positive only doesn’t work from research and experience. The main issue with positive is they reward good behavior and ignore the bad. They don’t correct it. Which would mean popping the collar or reshaping the dog into a sit when you told them to sit and they don’t. Positive training invariably focuses on pleading with your dog and coaxing them to obey your commands. Reinforcing positive behaviours with treats is an effective, natural approach. Lack of guidance on stopping negative behaviours and boundary setting, however, can leave owners without effective strategies when their dogs display difficult behaviours.

Clearly positive only isn’t working for you either. It doesn’t work for all dogs. That’s where balanced training comes in. It follows dog psychology in that when in a pack, they correct each other, and balanced training applies that in a much less harsh method than actual dogs do. You aren’t a trainer yet you judge training methods that you don’t know about which is kind of insulting.

 

[booboo222]

@nadinepeony Treat luring is a behaviour, not a training method positive reinforcement is a collection of behaviours like luring, shaping, and capturing using rewards such as food, toys, space, play, and anything else the dog finds super motivating. There is no "pleading" or "coaxing", simply taking the time to get to know the learner's individual needs, setting the environment up for success, and allowing them to learn in a way that is supportive of their own ability and comfort. A force free trainer understands if you asked a dog to sit and they don't, the fault lies with the handler making the request, not the learner who fails to deliver. I often find a balanced trainer is quick to punish the learner for their own mistakes.

Also a few quick things for anyone else reading along:

1. Domestic dogs aren't pack animals, and a collection of strange dogs interacting does not have "pack" dynamics. Wolves are pack animals, however there is very little conflict in their wild social groups, and outside of this group they will kill other wolves over resources if required. Intra-dog aggression is not "correction" and it is not an effective learning tool. Social learning can be beneficial in training but should be structured and facilitated by a professional.

Source

2. All corrections must be aversive to work. A "leash pop" if not on some level causing discomfort or anxiety, would not work. Here's a great article on leash corrections (with a source included).

You are certainly right though, I'm not a professional trainer, I am however qualified and I work closely with some of the best behavioural experts in our industry on my more difficult rehab cases, and I see first hand the dogs who experience aversive fall out thanks to balanced trainers and are euthanised in shelters for their bite histories. I apologise if you find that insulting, I use the science available to me to judge methods which appear to be harmful and inhumane - but if you have any articles or studies you think I should read to further educate myself, I'd be more than happy to look at them!

 

[nadinepeony]

@booboo222 https://www.precision-dog-training.com/dog-training-methods.html

https://www.totaldog850.com/balanced-training-vs-positive-only-training/

https://connectwithyourk9.com/what-is-balanced-dog-training/#:~:text=In%20it%E2%80%99s%20simplest%20form%2C%20Balanced%20Dog%20Training%20refers,can%20result%20in%20either%20pleasant%20or%20unpleasant%20results.

https://www.gooddogsminnesota.com/balanced-dog-training

The dogs that come out badly from balanced trainers are NOT trained by reputable trainers and I’m sorry those dogs had to go through that, no dog should be abused but you can’t blame all balanced trainers and balanced training in general from the bad cases of actual abusive owners and bad trainers. That’s like saying I don’t teach positive and that all positive is bad because it I’ve seen obese dogs come out of it. I don’t teach positive because of the poor results I’ve seen from a training aspect.

 

[booboo222]

@nadinepeony None of those articles contain sources to any studies or scientific data, they appear to be opinion pieces written by trainers whose qualifications I wasn’t really inclined to research. I do really appreciate you taking the time to share, but I will certainly take those links with a large grain of salt

Thank you though for the respectful discourse - it’s always nice to chat from either side of the aisle when things can be civil and informative. Seeing others opinions certainly helps me be a better advocate and be more empathetic to some of the more prevailing myths and misinformation out there.

Have a great night!