Is it extreme that I have lost respect for my family member because they use unkind methods to train?

[ashiedu]

Don’t want to write the word so the post doesn’t get flagged. They use a pog collar. Go to a trainer who suggested it. Don’t think they even tried force free. Their dog has bit 3 people and tried to bite my dog. This number is likely higher!!! Now they are using this. I told my partner I don’t want my dog interacting with his. Honestly I’m just kind of disgusted with this family member. Idk if my feelings are too extreme…

Edit: I tried to write out the tool they use and I used *** in place of some of the letters but when it posted the *** disappeared.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@ashiedu I’d say that yes- your feelings are too extreme.

See first how it goes with their dog and if you do see that the dog regresses, gets worse, you can go and offer a better solution, find a better trainer for them.

Sounds like you don’t really know their situation- maybe they’ve tried things before and are looking into other options.

An aggressive dog is not a joke.

At the end of the day, people do what’s best for their dogs, or so they think they do.

As long as the owners haven’t shown signs of being abusive or they’re using the prong to yank their dog around, I’d allow space for them and give them grace.

 

[monk58]

@ashiedu I would lose respect if I didn't also know the world of dog training is seriously messed up and even nice and good people can so easily get sucked into the negative training especially if they are inexperienced

Th stuff you are talking about is not the norm in my own country however we still do have the idea of corrections etc even if the "tools" are really not used

I think I would be trying to chat and show alternatives in a non judgmental way to this person. Trying to keep the door open and influence them to less harmful methods.. gently

I agree though that my own dog would be going no where near this poor dog because the risk of harm to my own dog is too high

 

[ej2018]

@ashiedu It can certainly a nuanced answer in my opinion. In the case of your family member I think situations like these can certainly make you see that person in a new light where they are careless, uninformed, and/or cruel. If there's a history of biting and non-effective management on their part, it's natural for these actions to inform how you view you and decide to interact with them.

That said, I do think it's worth having a bit of grace for people who use these methods (at least for some, however, people who believe in compulsion training I admit I would be wary of myself). A lot of people who use these methods are working from a human-centered approach, a "how can I get my dog to listen to me?" line of thinking and they resort to collars because they consider punishment a more impactful conditioning technique. And for a lot of them, I suppose the method works to an extent where they feel like they can get by.

I'll admit, I resorted to that method for a brief few weeks thinking it would be a better route to help train my dog. He was entering his teenager phase and was just a big diva of a GSD/Husky, I was desperate to try anything. I could say the collar "worked" on our walks, they were manageable and I felt like I had an easier way of communicating with him. I was also attuned to his body language and he had his ears tucked whenever we left to go outside and I just knew that our engagement had been severed where he was clearly not comfortable and in distress from wearing it. So I stopped and we went back to square one and worked(realistically, still are working) our way up from there.

I could have easily just told myself that this was all part of the conditioning process and he's "learning actions have consequences." I'm really happy that I didn't take that route.

Anecdotely, I've come across a fair amount of people who use them and they seem to have great relationships with their dog and they will often play well with other dogs off leash. I don't really feel the need to speculate on "but how truly happy is the dog, really?" Because that doesn't serve anybody.

I wish more people would learn how to train using force free methods, but I don't want to spend my time comparing my training/ethics/morality to others. But there are a lot of people who just need to come to grips with reality that caring for an animal is not in their nature and they should NOT be dog owners!

Didn't mean to write a novel, but that's my two cents on the topic for today

 

[berke]

@ashiedu In life in general, I think it’s generally best to try to judge actions by outcome (or range of likely outcomes when there is risk), people’s judgement by their past actions, but people’s character by their intentions (which includes willingness to learn when presented with new information/learning from bad choices).

In this case, the person that you are talking about is trying to do the right thing by hiring a “professional” and investing their time and money to help a dog many people would not. Not only is an authority figure telling them this but even if they do “their own research” they will likely find lots of resources advocating the same approach. And they are probably desperate and scared because their dog is “dangerous” and they don’t know what to do on their own.

This is not an endorsement of the methods they’re using but I think it’s wise to extend them some grace and understanding. If you want to help them learn about more positive methods, remember that humans also respond to positive reinforcement and they best way to help a person grow is usually educating with kindness. (But you are under no obligation to help someone else learn).

Also regardless of the people or methods involved I would not let my dog interact with this one fwiw. Too high risk for both of them.

 

[donica]

@ashiedu I think it’s hard to manage a dangerous dog. I can totally see how someone hoping to do better and being constantly told “just put on a collar on” would try it as a last resort. Especially since so many people basically say it’s the be all and end all for any dog problems and a trainer told them to. It’s more on the trainer than the owner.

If I went to a doctor, and he prescribed me mustard for a heart problem, it’s not entirely my fault if I start eating more mustard and don’t get critical heart medication. I went to a professional (or I assumed was a professional) who misled me which is different from making up my own homeopathic medicine.

So I guess, I’m saying trying the incorrect thing is better than doing nothing and the dog trainer should get more blame and disgust for this than the owner. After all, they are getting paid for this stuff and are supposedly the expert.

 

[mjr88]

@ashiedu I would say your view is extreme. I'm sure they are very upset and feeling helpless that their dog has become so aggressive, so they did the only thing they could - they turned to a professional. Following that professional's instructions doesn't make them bad people just because you don't agree with that trainer's methods. Our first 2 trainers were actually balanced trainers who used collars combined with treats. They came highly recommended - one was recommended by the breeder, the other from the local police dog academy - and were extremely expensive. Although our puppy seemed stressed working with them, we were first time dog owners so just took it on faith that they were the experts and if we did what they told us she'd get better. It took a year and a lot of research for us to finally decide the balanced method wasn't working for her and switch to R+. Honestly, and I know this will be controversial here, I'm not 100% sure R+ will work either because she's actually much worse now. But we're going to have faith and keep trying.

I would hope that my friends & family didn't lose respect for me during my year of balanced training. I didn't go that route because I'm some evil person who doesn't love my dog. In fact, quite the opposite - I did it out of extreme love for her. I sought out the best experts, and literally spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours following their training regimen because I was desperate to fix the problem.

 

[augustatrillyon]

@ashiedu If we’re talking about what I think we’re taking about (ē-collar?) I don’t think those collars are all that bad. All should come with an vibrate option which works amazing for training recall and reactive dogs. My girl was super reactive (never aggresslve) but would just bark non stop, one tap of the vibrate and she stops barking, we reward her for the lack of barking, she learned not to bark.

The only time I’m truly against the collars is if someone is using the stimulation option to hurt their dog or improperly use it for training. The humans should all be take a course in how to use the collar to prevent injury.

They’re not all that bad. I think for a very aggressive dog like the one mentioned here could actually help the dogs behaviour if it is used properly. I don’t think you should cut ties with them. What would you do with your dog if it acted like that? Collars could be a last ditch effort

 

[coreopsis]

@ashiedu I try to stay in my lane. Unless folks ask for advice, I don’t give it. Family members can deal with their pets, children, spouses in any way they want. Until it crosses abuse. You aren’t describing a situation where they are abusing their dog. But you are describing a dangerous dog.

If their dog is dangerous to your dog or to people I think it’s 100% reasonable to say the dog needs to be put up when your family is around. Don’t let your dog interact with theirs. That has nothing to do with your opinion about the way they train. It’s based on the behavior of the dog.

 

[makas]

@ashiedu With the information given, yes. It's a bit of an extreme belief. That training device has a place and is necessary in some circumstances. It's not the only implement to use and must be used with proper training so the dog understands the rules AND training of the handler by an experienced trainer. It's definitely not for every dog and probably not for most dogs, but there is a time and a place for it.

I know, unpopular opinion in here and I'll get down voted for it, but that's reddit for ya

 

[cathya]

@ashiedu Honestly what would lose my respect here is letting your dog bite THREE people and not getting real with it and doing the most responsible thing: Muzzle your damn dog.

I think it’s just so out of whack when people will do something that works because it’s aversive but won’t even wisen up and put a muzzle on their dog.

Maybe I’m a tad jaded because I’m a dog professional and I just see a lot of it. Not even training but across the board. Stuff that can very easily be researched on the internet if you’re actively interested in the best thing for your dog.

I owned a severely aggressive dog (last door rescue, everyone else had sent her back) and never in her life was there a time when a show of force was the only option.

 

[dme]

@ashiedu My mom was what I personally believe is abusive. She got a tiny dog and was bullying him. Like I know certain tactics used to be common but still! When a puppy pottys inside, that's your fault! Watch it better, take it out more, crate it, leash it to you, etc. But don't get mad at the puppy and physically degrade it. When her puppy was tiny and too scared to come in my house with my giant beasts, she thought just yank him in! I sat with the puppy on my steps outside and within 5 minutes he was ready to walk in on his own.

I told her that's not gonna happen at my house. What she does at her house is out of my control. But she will not be doing any of that to him at my house. If that's a problem, grab your stuff and go to a hotel! She wasn't just bullying her dog though, she was doing what she thought was best. All she knew. I had to show her another way and show her results fast. Your intact young male is harassing the only female in the house? And she's going to tell him off. Only she's 70lbs and he's 5lbs. Easy. Put him on a leash inside. He quit the humping butt obsession in minutes.

If I hadn't been grown in my own house, it wouldn't be this simple. But my mom knew I meant business and I was only ever trying to help her and her dog. I was never trying to shame her. It wouldn't help. You have to consider how you would want to be spoken to if you were wrong and for it to actually change you vs make you defensive.

 

[ashiedu]

@dme Thank you for your input!! Soooo true about the last part. How you word things makes all the difference.

 

[dme]

@ashiedu I don't know you or anything about your situation. But I'm 30 now. And once upon a time, I was growing up under her roof. It took years of barely seeing each other to get here. She wasn't always willing to hear me out or change. So I wasn't always willing to talk!

 

[daughterofgod99]

@ashiedu My sister in law and brother in law have 5 dogs. I don’t agree with half the stuff I hear they do or don’t do.

 

[leemeadow]

@ashiedu It’s tricky and it really depends. If someone was using a pr*ng collar as an excuse to basically abuse their dog that’d be one thing.

But if someone is just moving along their journey of working with a reactive dog I try not to judge. As reactive dog owners, many of us are very willing to try something if it’ll help, and it takes time to really learn from all those experiences sometimes.

I’m open about the fact that I used a pr*ng collar with one of my dogs early on. We were confused and just didn’t really know everything we know now. We worked with a balanced trainer who recommended it and we felt that we should just listen to the professional. We saw pretty quick results with it so we stuck with it for a while. Over time though, we realized it was adding stress and then suppressing it, so we stopped using it.

We use harnesses now and have worked on our dogs’ reactivity in other ways that focus on building confidence, associating calm with rewards, enrichment, etc.

I know I’m not a bad person. I let my desperation lead me to trying methods that I realize now are not for us. That’s okay. Owning a reactive dog is hard. We’re gonna make mistakes along the way.

 

[childman]

@ashiedu Having an aggressive dog myself, I understand the desperation and need to trust a professional. And there are a lot of less than ideal professionals out there - from both sides of the training coin - that I've run into and had to use my own research to determine if their methods would work for us. That's a tall order for causal dog owners to have to take on, so I get why they are doing what they are doing.

There are definitely situations where tools are reached for quickly, but I strongly disagree with another comment that tools are required for training/behavior mod for any - let alone ALL! - dogs. I do follow some balanced trainers and even they would disagree that force free training doesn't work, but would say that in some situations a quick solution is needed before getting to the root of the problem. Personally, I have never had to resort to using tools to manage/train my own dog, but I do have some advantages on my side that have allowed me to do that.

I would say the most important thing is to keep your own dog safe, and just be a patient sounding board for them. If you have worked with aggression in dogs, maybe offer some gentle suggestions about you may have handled X or Y, or even suggest some podcasts - but at the end of the day, most dog owners are going to do what the professional tells them and not do much research/homework outside of that framework, so you may be against a wall here. And if the dog isn't being outright abused, that's probably fine, though hopefully they don't have to deal with the fallout from the aversion later on.

 

[nauma]

@ashiedu Pong collars can be less aversive to dogs than withholding a reward. I lose respect for people who will stress their dog out with a treat before I lose respect for people responsibly using tools tbh. If they're using it irresponsibly then fine, you have a right to lose respect, but if they have guidance from a trainer who isn't using dominance theory, and the dog is responding to the training, then your judgement is clouded by irrational feelings in my opinion.

 

[ashiedu]

@nauma The trainer they go to promotes alpha and pack theory and why would you with hold a reward? How do you figure pong can be less aversive?

 

[nauma]

@ashiedu For example if the dog is leash reactive, and you have a "magnet" reward (in this example we'll use hotdogs) for it to distract it, but are trying to get it to sit and it won't sit, so you're withholding the hotdog until the dog sits, you're going to stress it out by withholding the hotdog which in turn my amp it up to be even more stressed out when seeing other dogs. There were a couple of studies that I read where it said that the dogs stress levels are higher when doing that than when receiving a correction. Pongs, when properly fitted and used correctly don't hurt the dog, they just cause discomfort and the dog is in charge of when they receive the correction, and for how long they receive the correction (again this is only when it's used properly, alpha/pack theory is a red flag). So in the leash reactivity example, if the dog lunges and gives itself a correction (which these collars are designed to mimic the first correction the dogs get from their mom as pups) they'll be like "oop okay what was that" and it might be easier to redirect the dog into another position, mark and reward (always still rewarding, but instead of withholding the reward until it does a desired behavior, the dog has a chance to reset itself before being asked to reposition). It works with some dogs, but obviously not all, and in some cases it'll just fuel the dog into wanting to fight even more. Especially when not properly used or fitted. If they're used to hurt the dog it's more likely to just make the dog associate whatever the stimulus is with feeling pain and then they're just hurt and angry. A lot of good trainers will use them as a last resort, and all the good trainers that use them, use whatever is best for the dog that's in front of them. All that said, alpha theory is a red flag and I still wouldn't lose respect for the sister but I'd probably tell her that she's about to waste a whole lot of money for her dog to get worse before she spends a whole lot more money on a new trainer who will have to fix whatever this trainer broke and then fix whatever's happening now, probably cheapest option is to find a new trainer and take the tool off the dog.