@seanmonty I agree with this. My dog is calm if I ask him to find a ball but goes bonkers if he sees a ball being thrown. We played a fair amount of fetch before I stopped and I think the antsy athlete description is accurate for my dog and it's an obsessive pattern that I likely programmed into him.
Is fetch bad for our dogs too? Ffs
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@pixeloriousspriteson I have a reactive (not aggressive) bully and we play fetch all the time. He doesn't equate the ball with an animal and has a completely different reaction to it than he does the few animals he is reactive towards (groundhogs and certain cats).
He has a very strong "leave it" command with the ball and does not resource guard it at all. I've actually found our fetch games to be great opportunities to practice impulse control by calling him back mid fetch or making him wait to chase the ball.
All reactive dogs are not the same and I feel like if you can keep your fetch sessions constructive and controlled without your dog just going berserk than I wouldn't worry.
Edit: I also wanted to add that we always warm up before we play fetch and like others said we don't do any abrupt maneuvers.
He has a very strong "leave it" command with the ball and does not resource guard it at all. I've actually found our fetch games to be great opportunities to practice impulse control by calling him back mid fetch or making him wait to chase the ball.
All reactive dogs are not the same and I feel like if you can keep your fetch sessions constructive and controlled without your dog just going berserk than I wouldn't worry.
Edit: I also wanted to add that we always warm up before we play fetch and like others said we don't do any abrupt maneuvers.
pixeloriousspriteson
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@anthony70 Oh warming up first. Very good call. What does that look like for you guys? I’d say our girl doesn’t equate the ball with an animal either.
@pixeloriousspriteson Our warm up is usually the walk to the park or if we're just in the backyard I'll let him explore, sniff first an do a few short throws. Also If we have a big exercise day well take the next one easy so he can recoup.
Believe it or not another thing we'll do that he LOVES is go to a big empty field and my buddy flies a cheap little drone just high enough so he can't grab it. He will chase it till he's totally gassed and usually sleeps the rest of the day. I feel comfortable doing this too because the drone is not analogous to anything organic that I'm worried about him chasing.
The only thing I don't do with him as far as play is tug-o-war. I don't want to encourage that behavior and when I grab something from him he knows to drop it immediately
Believe it or not another thing we'll do that he LOVES is go to a big empty field and my buddy flies a cheap little drone just high enough so he can't grab it. He will chase it till he's totally gassed and usually sleeps the rest of the day. I feel comfortable doing this too because the drone is not analogous to anything organic that I'm worried about him chasing.
The only thing I don't do with him as far as play is tug-o-war. I don't want to encourage that behavior and when I grab something from him he knows to drop it immediately
manasseh77
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@pixeloriousspriteson Personally I think it gives a productive means of getting some of that prey drive out rather than trying to pretend it’s not there. Just ignoring prey drive does not make it go away and many trainers I follow tend to say that you need to be able to control of your dogs drives. Just like others have said, fetch is a good means of teaching impulse control and also obedience while their prey drive is activated. I don’t see any downsides.
@pixeloriousspriteson I reduced fetch to six goes and as a reward type scenario with more calm and sniffing and training drills in the walk
The idea was to not have the addicting high of cortisol and keeping his arousal levels goingup and down from medium level. More lower intensity exercise
I did go to a class where they were pretty scathing about ball throwers etc and banned them. So I did for a bot... but after a few months I reintroduced short bursts of ball throwing
I have a whippet and chase is literally enrichment of the most satidfying kind for him and since he can't do it with other dogs..
I have noticed controlled chase unwinds his whippet spring and makes him calmer on the lead.. but not over used
I am actually using it with recall to the whistle practice (he returns with the ball) and it is helping reinforce this
It occurs to me you might like to read Hunting Together which is about harnessing predatory sequences in different breeds
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/...MIrLnUhcWI_gIVqe_tCh2ewQC_EAQYAyABEgJQkfD_BwE
I can recommend it
I am using the second book on recall with predatory sequence as well
As to the ball and fetch... hmmm I think you have to treat a dog as an individual and some will get positive enrichment from it
I would discuss with my trainer and maybe use it mixed up with other forms of training and games to keep a balance
Flirt pole can be good or building in impulse control and stops to fetch with a ball. Using and shaping the dogs brain
Forgot to say I wouldn't worry about the squeeky toy killing.. I don't see how they ever translate than onto predation! It seems more mental chewing and shredding enrichment to me
The idea was to not have the addicting high of cortisol and keeping his arousal levels goingup and down from medium level. More lower intensity exercise
I did go to a class where they were pretty scathing about ball throwers etc and banned them. So I did for a bot... but after a few months I reintroduced short bursts of ball throwing
I have a whippet and chase is literally enrichment of the most satidfying kind for him and since he can't do it with other dogs..
I have noticed controlled chase unwinds his whippet spring and makes him calmer on the lead.. but not over used
I am actually using it with recall to the whistle practice (he returns with the ball) and it is helping reinforce this
It occurs to me you might like to read Hunting Together which is about harnessing predatory sequences in different breeds
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/...MIrLnUhcWI_gIVqe_tCh2ewQC_EAQYAyABEgJQkfD_BwE
I can recommend it
I am using the second book on recall with predatory sequence as well
As to the ball and fetch... hmmm I think you have to treat a dog as an individual and some will get positive enrichment from it
I would discuss with my trainer and maybe use it mixed up with other forms of training and games to keep a balance
Flirt pole can be good or building in impulse control and stops to fetch with a ball. Using and shaping the dogs brain
Forgot to say I wouldn't worry about the squeeky toy killing.. I don't see how they ever translate than onto predation! It seems more mental chewing and shredding enrichment to me
pixeloriousspriteson
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I’ll take a look at those books!joshuawithmartin
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@pixeloriousspriteson Perhaps for some dogs it may harness the predatory sequence, but I'm not sure that's the case for all or even most reactive dogs. It probably depends on why or in what way your dog is reactive.
I still play fetch with my dog on occasion but we have definitely changed up how we do it and also reduced the frequency by a lot and I do find that it has helped her overall mental state.
When we first adopted her years ago, she was an adolescent and I was just diving into the whole reactivity thing so I thought playing fetch on a big field was a great way to burn her energy. She *loves* fetch after all, especially with a squeaky ball! We would play just about every day. After a few months I realized that maybe the way that she loves fetch Isn't the healthiest - its quite obsessive for her, and one day she played and played fetch for ages and kept asking for more and finally I decided we should probably go home. Later that day I saw little blood drops on the ground and noticed she was limping: she had played until her paws bled and still kept going and didn't even notice the pain. I thought that she might stop when she was tired or starting to hurt but it became clear that she is not the type of dog that was going to do that.
We stopped playing with squeaky balls after that and reduced how often we played. A while later Sarah Stremming came out with her "The Trouble With Fetch" post and it really resonated with me with my dog in particular so we decided to take a break all together for a long time.
Nowadays we still play fetch on occasion but we break it up with lots of tricks and cues between throws and still don't use a squeaky ball. When I throw it I also usually have her wait and throw it into an area with little to no visibility so she's not just sprinting for it back and forth, then release her to search for it there's an element of sniffing and finding the ball. Squeaky ball is reserved more emergency and high stakes situations.
There's a lot of good info out there and nuance depending on your individual dog, environment, and situation. Use what nuggets you think might be helpful for you and don't worry too much about the rest or be too hard on yourself!
I still play fetch with my dog on occasion but we have definitely changed up how we do it and also reduced the frequency by a lot and I do find that it has helped her overall mental state.
When we first adopted her years ago, she was an adolescent and I was just diving into the whole reactivity thing so I thought playing fetch on a big field was a great way to burn her energy. She *loves* fetch after all, especially with a squeaky ball! We would play just about every day. After a few months I realized that maybe the way that she loves fetch Isn't the healthiest - its quite obsessive for her, and one day she played and played fetch for ages and kept asking for more and finally I decided we should probably go home. Later that day I saw little blood drops on the ground and noticed she was limping: she had played until her paws bled and still kept going and didn't even notice the pain. I thought that she might stop when she was tired or starting to hurt but it became clear that she is not the type of dog that was going to do that.
We stopped playing with squeaky balls after that and reduced how often we played. A while later Sarah Stremming came out with her "The Trouble With Fetch" post and it really resonated with me with my dog in particular so we decided to take a break all together for a long time.
Nowadays we still play fetch on occasion but we break it up with lots of tricks and cues between throws and still don't use a squeaky ball. When I throw it I also usually have her wait and throw it into an area with little to no visibility so she's not just sprinting for it back and forth, then release her to search for it there's an element of sniffing and finding the ball. Squeaky ball is reserved more emergency and high stakes situations.
There's a lot of good info out there and nuance depending on your individual dog, environment, and situation. Use what nuggets you think might be helpful for you and don't worry too much about the rest or be too hard on yourself!
@pixeloriousspriteson I talked with my behaviorist about this recently, and I listened to a few podcasts about arousal and layering arousal.
If your dog loses her mind playing fetch--like she's grimacing (which some people think is a big happy grin), she can't follow simple known cues like sit or a nose touch to your palm, or you're seeing other signs of hyperarousal--then changing how you play might be something to consider. I do this with my dog who struggles with hyperarousal. He has to check in with me between throws or every few throws, like a quick nose touch to my palm, a quick sit or down, anything to show his brain is not completely on fire up there. It is more important with his flirt pole, which is the highest value toy for him currently.
I have considered learning "retriever games" through Focus Dogs as a replacement for fetch, but I haven't done that yet so can't speak to it. It seemed interesting though.
If your dog loses her mind playing fetch--like she's grimacing (which some people think is a big happy grin), she can't follow simple known cues like sit or a nose touch to your palm, or you're seeing other signs of hyperarousal--then changing how you play might be something to consider. I do this with my dog who struggles with hyperarousal. He has to check in with me between throws or every few throws, like a quick nose touch to my palm, a quick sit or down, anything to show his brain is not completely on fire up there. It is more important with his flirt pole, which is the highest value toy for him currently.
I have considered learning "retriever games" through Focus Dogs as a replacement for fetch, but I haven't done that yet so can't speak to it. It seemed interesting though.
pixeloriousspriteson
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@pixeloriousspriteson High intensity exercise such as chuck it style fetch can absolutely make reactivity worse. I saw a big improvement in my dogs impulsivity and general calmness when I focused on impulse control and low impact exercise like decompression walks.
@pixeloriousspriteson I think it’s subjective and mostly depends on your dog and their behaviour. The only bad thing I’ve heard about fetch generally is that it can be hard on the joints
biblicaleq
New member
@pixeloriousspriteson I think it might be breed dependent m I'm a border collie person and fetch has always (to my knowledge) been a big no no with border collies. That's because a) they want to get in front of moving objects to stop them and repeatedly failing to do so on a fast moving ball is frustrating; and b) they're built to be obsessive, especially where their needs are frustrated. BCs chase shadows/ lights/ waves because they won't be herded so they just keep trying and trying and trying in hope of resolution, getting trapped in a frustrating and stressful loop that is difficult to interrupt and ending in a compulsive disorder. This same process can occur with ball throwing so the BC becomes obsessed with the ball.
My BC does not play fetch, but we play with balls in more breed-friendly ways. Ball is still her favourite toy but she doesn't have the same intense, angry obsession that my previous collie had (before I knew about this advice and therefore made the mistake of playing fetch). Last BC was not reactive, BTW. Current one is.
So that's what I know about BCs and fetch. Not sure I see as much of a problem with a retriever or a sighthound where the chasing part matches their predatory instincts rather than frustrating them.
The advice you've heard sounds like bollocks to me? I deliberately engage in games that trigger my dog's instincts so she has an outlet. This calms her down. My dog's reactivity is 100% prey drive, not fear, so I put a lot of work into providing safe outlets and encouraging her to choose those over unsafe outlets. Herding games are amazing for my dog. Dogs with prey drive will experience prey drive no matter what you do so why not provide safe ways for them to show their instincts rather than let them practice in dangerous ways?
My BC does not play fetch, but we play with balls in more breed-friendly ways. Ball is still her favourite toy but she doesn't have the same intense, angry obsession that my previous collie had (before I knew about this advice and therefore made the mistake of playing fetch). Last BC was not reactive, BTW. Current one is.
So that's what I know about BCs and fetch. Not sure I see as much of a problem with a retriever or a sighthound where the chasing part matches their predatory instincts rather than frustrating them.
The advice you've heard sounds like bollocks to me? I deliberately engage in games that trigger my dog's instincts so she has an outlet. This calms her down. My dog's reactivity is 100% prey drive, not fear, so I put a lot of work into providing safe outlets and encouraging her to choose those over unsafe outlets. Herding games are amazing for my dog. Dogs with prey drive will experience prey drive no matter what you do so why not provide safe ways for them to show their instincts rather than let them practice in dangerous ways?
@pixeloriousspriteson Nah my dog has ball drive out the ass so fetch is a godsend. Before he had a bite incident and had to be muzzled outside I’d let him bring his ball out both to give him a job (carry it back inside) and as a nice distraction bc no matter how exciting or scary a trigger is the ball is going to win out his attention.
I have seen this take before and if you’re concerned what I was told was to make sure you’re completing the predatory sequence to avoid frustration (give them a chew or kong after a session of fetch) and to make sure to just not overdo it to avoid joint issues.
I have seen this take before and if you’re concerned what I was told was to make sure you’re completing the predatory sequence to avoid frustration (give them a chew or kong after a session of fetch) and to make sure to just not overdo it to avoid joint issues.
@pixeloriousspriteson Chasing a ball or frisbee or toy can be overly stimulating for some dogs and makes them more aroused.
If you modify your fetch game to keep it low key and incorporate a cue-response-reward sequence it changes the way the dog has to think about the game.
For instance. You ask for a cue: high five. Dog does cue when asked and does cue correctly. Throw toy.
When the dog comes back, retrieve toy and ask for a different cue, dog responds, throw toy.
Keep the session short 2-5 minutes
If you modify your fetch game to keep it low key and incorporate a cue-response-reward sequence it changes the way the dog has to think about the game.
For instance. You ask for a cue: high five. Dog does cue when asked and does cue correctly. Throw toy.
When the dog comes back, retrieve toy and ask for a different cue, dog responds, throw toy.
Keep the session short 2-5 minutes
stephen_nz
New member
@pixeloriousspriteson When my slightly murderous terrier dog wants to sink it’s teeth in something - we slay the fluffy lambchops toy, we jump and sprint to the fur tied to the flirt toy, and we go to growl-laden town on ropey toy. If he’s clearly got too much energy - we say “go to your box” (the dog toy box) and “get a toy” and then we play with him. We give him awesome long-standing chews. ( and we hold them for him so it’s a team sport and he can get the sweet spot at the back of the molars)
If he gets aggro at a knock on the door or a sound or smell - we can redirect to murdering a toy for “go to the box” “get a toy” “bring it here” (murder of toys ensues) we always rewards patience and waiting on “the spot” (a dog pillow on carpet that’s near-ish the front door)
Our dog has never bit another person, and god forbid, one of our friends’ kids. Our dog has never destroyed a pillow. Our dog has no separation anxiety. Our dog easily redirects his murder to acceptable murder toys. Our dog is a handful, but we try to redirect his murders to a preselected item and to always reinforce when he listens to us in a high stakes situation (like “Mom I want to bark at the neighbour’s dog but I guess (rolls canine eyes) I’ll listen to you and go to my spot and wait.”)
Basically, we use fetch as an opportunity to practice a hunt, and listen to human instructions during the hunt. Then we let him go absolutely bananas on his toy. (Yes, it means they get destroyed)
We have a rat terrier. He hunts and kills the rats at our community garbage. The instinct will always be there. Our training has focussed on what he can and cannot attack, and checking in with us (“look at me”) before going into assassin mode. Kill? Rats, yes. Humans, no - NEVER. Household items - never.
Toys from the box - yes, absolutely.
It works for us.
If he gets aggro at a knock on the door or a sound or smell - we can redirect to murdering a toy for “go to the box” “get a toy” “bring it here” (murder of toys ensues) we always rewards patience and waiting on “the spot” (a dog pillow on carpet that’s near-ish the front door)
Our dog has never bit another person, and god forbid, one of our friends’ kids. Our dog has never destroyed a pillow. Our dog has no separation anxiety. Our dog easily redirects his murder to acceptable murder toys. Our dog is a handful, but we try to redirect his murders to a preselected item and to always reinforce when he listens to us in a high stakes situation (like “Mom I want to bark at the neighbour’s dog but I guess (rolls canine eyes) I’ll listen to you and go to my spot and wait.”)
Basically, we use fetch as an opportunity to practice a hunt, and listen to human instructions during the hunt. Then we let him go absolutely bananas on his toy. (Yes, it means they get destroyed)
We have a rat terrier. He hunts and kills the rats at our community garbage. The instinct will always be there. Our training has focussed on what he can and cannot attack, and checking in with us (“look at me”) before going into assassin mode. Kill? Rats, yes. Humans, no - NEVER. Household items - never.
Toys from the box - yes, absolutely.
It works for us.
pixeloriousspriteson
New member
@stephen_nz Love this. She came to us at 11 with a clear understanding of what’s hers in the house and what’s not. She definitely tried to actually murder a cat that came into our yard (and got what she deserved in return). I love the “go to your box” cue, I’m going to try that. I wish her toys lasted long enough to really hold her attention beyond the initial 12-hour murder window, still worth a shot though.
stephen_nz
New member
@pixeloriousspriteson Our toys go through a life cycle.
A) new fluffy squeaky toy
B) new fluffy eviscerated toy with squeaky removed.
C) Gross chewed saliva toy with various squeakers stuff in
D) very disgusting toy and random squeakers stuffed into orphan sock and tied off
D) A dog-toy-centipede of various fluffy toy skins and old socks tied together.
E) buy new toys, repeat process every 4-6 months.
Edit - adding, no single toy occupies our terrier for long. Our success has been routine - a happy medium of what he wants and us providing a facsimile of that thing (hunting a kong toy instead of the neighbours’ cat) and a supply of things to distract him.
We just have a steady supply of commands,
Puzzles, or environmental controls (crate is in warmest room and gets a hot water bottle, the other rooms are awful according to him) to subtly redirect him into an acceptable behaviour.
Also crate training 100% for our guy. I know it’s not for everyone and older dogs struggle with it but the crate is essentially his bedroom and we never use it as punishment. It’s an easy ask to say “go to Your crate” we always put a treat in there if we leave the house so he loves us taking off - means he gets a yums and a nap
A) new fluffy squeaky toy
B) new fluffy eviscerated toy with squeaky removed.
C) Gross chewed saliva toy with various squeakers stuff in
D) very disgusting toy and random squeakers stuffed into orphan sock and tied off
D) A dog-toy-centipede of various fluffy toy skins and old socks tied together.
E) buy new toys, repeat process every 4-6 months.
Edit - adding, no single toy occupies our terrier for long. Our success has been routine - a happy medium of what he wants and us providing a facsimile of that thing (hunting a kong toy instead of the neighbours’ cat) and a supply of things to distract him.
We just have a steady supply of commands,
Puzzles, or environmental controls (crate is in warmest room and gets a hot water bottle, the other rooms are awful according to him) to subtly redirect him into an acceptable behaviour.
Also crate training 100% for our guy. I know it’s not for everyone and older dogs struggle with it but the crate is essentially his bedroom and we never use it as punishment. It’s an easy ask to say “go to Your crate” we always put a treat in there if we leave the house so he loves us taking off - means he gets a yums and a nap
@pixeloriousspriteson For my dog, it’s a great way to burn energy so he isn’t reactive to new people when they meet him. It’s also been a great way for him to bond with new people. I use it as a tool for impulse training and training commands such as leave it, stay, sit, wait, etc. He isn’t aggressively reactive, his reactivity is all from excitement and shyness, so it might be a different story in a different situation.
I’d imagine there are some dogs that it should be avoided with, but I don’t think it’s something that all reactive dogs need to avoid.
I’d imagine there are some dogs that it should be avoided with, but I don’t think it’s something that all reactive dogs need to avoid.
pixeloriousspriteson
New member
@srepeehcs So far we think she’s leash reactive to dogs and humans. I’ve seen her greet a stranger off leash (human) and dog thru a chain link fence very happily and calmly. She barks at mailmen with a vengeance, and barks at new people in our home but so far it’s been a loud way of yelling YOURE NEW AND I WANT YOUR ATTENTION. The rescue worked with her for a while and confirmed what we think - that she’s not aggressive (except towards cats and mailmen!). She’s nervous and learned that barking was how she made things happen.