Is fetch bad for our dogs too? Ffs

[greenhill]

@pixeloriousspriteson For me, what worked was going to a larger park eeeeaaaarly in the morning (be sure to wear reflective gear but usually the place is empty) or going in the rain. Then we gradually started going at slightly busier times as long as there was enough space to give her distance.

We also found a wilderness area near us that has been incredible. It’s far enough away that we can’t go too often but something is better than nothing. And I had no idea it existed until this dog!

 

[kiterider]

@joshuawithmartin Thank you for sharing this. Personally sounds like something my dog and I will enjoy and why not!

 

[stephen_nz]

@greenhill I do fetch /variations on “go get” specifically for my hunting terrier.

He is going to hunt. I cannot change that. I want as much training and practice at home, in advance of a high stakes situation. He can hunt and kill, but I will correct what can be hunted or killed, and when. I want (need) the ability to call of a hunt/chase.

The more time we have communicating that “you can absolutely kill something, just not this or not now” the better I am able to intervene in the kill-hunt canine sequence.

I called my dog off a rabbit midchase last year. Then we gave him some chicken. A fair trade.

Edit - adding fetch and sniff/walk accomplish two different tasks. One is the hunt sequence, the other is environmental assessment/information. Dog needs both.

 

[freeofhsv1]

@stephen_nz

I called my dog off a rabbit midchase last year. Then we gave him some chicken. A fair trade.

That's a huge achievement! I have a whippet so I understand the struggle.

Mine caught a rabbit recently, turns out he doesn't know what to do once it's caught. He just held it gently till we got him to let go, then the rabbit hopped into its burrow unharmed.

It matches how he plays fetch. Chasing and catching it is fun, after that he doesn't care.

 

[monk58]

@freeofhsv1 Ugh whippets.. it is purely instinctual

I can say that.. I have a whippet!

Just at the moment I have no hope of a call off of rabbits or deer.. or squirrels

Going to have to work hard at that

He has caught both a rabbit and a small deer.. in neither case was I close enough or fast enough to intervene in any way. He escaped.. deer. Rabbit.. ugh gone in a flash. Bad luck and paths crossing without me seeing they were there and putting him on the lead

I did note though that once the prey was down and dead he was completely uninterested in it... he is just triggered by motion and is surprisingly prey appropriate. Limited reaction to livestock although we have clearly never had the occasion off lead! Never will! He would kill chickens though.. something about them is less focus and prey drive than rabbits but the clucking and fluffing.. hmm sets him off

I think my problem is I have a working line whippet... he is "more" than my friends racing whippet. More focused of you know what I mean

I have always been a bit dubious that working line instincts are over stated but I am forced to concede there may be something in the genetics and the response of different dogs like mine

 

[freeofhsv1]

@monk58 We've had the opposite luck, my whippet killed a deer once, although we think it was accidental. The deer had a big cut between it's legs, so we think it cut itself while being chased, then my dog knocked it over and pinned it down till we arrived and removed him. It was very sad. Also lucky that my dog wasn't injured by the deers hooves, apparently they can cut like knives. I don't take him or let him off lead anywhere that I know has deer since.

Mines quite good with birds, it's about the only thing I've had success with training him not to chase, maybe because they're so common I could train him as soon as we started walking him.

My method is to say 'leave it' when he even looks at them. Now he can walk right past them without looking. Unless they're injured, then he still tries. It's kinda handy though, I managed to rescue an injured crow with his help.

Once they start running after prey though, it's like all their senses become blind to anything else. It's impossible to get their attention. Seems like training is only possible when they're still at the looking phase (although that's still extremely difficult).

 

[monk58]

@freeofhsv1 Yup I agree

Totally blind to anything. Will run through wire fences etc... it is purely instinct at that point

He did kill the deer... I was super unclear in that sentence. He escaped to catch it. I think the deer died of shock. He had caught it though and there were marks on its shoulder from teeth and he had grabbed and held on. They were like scrapes but no sign of a struggle in the long gras. I think it keeled overpoor thing. It was right by the next fence and it might have lost him if it had got over. I found him standing over it (I had initially gone down the hill after them and he and the deer doubled back out of my sigh up hill)and checked its neck wasn't broken no blood from throat etc. I do think it died from shock

It was super strange when I caught up he happily went on the lead and walked away from the corpse! My experience of terriers was they would put up a struggle and be desperately dragging their kill away from me trying to hide it! He was indifferent to it and never asked out in the middle of the night and only went over to check where it had been once the next day

Different instincts I guess. The chase is all for him not the kill. Once it is out of sight or too far away he stops running. He won't keep goign like some hounds

I must admit I never knew sight hounds had such a clear switch when running. Makes them tricky to keep safe and train!

 

[freeofhsv1]

@monk58

He did kill the deer...

Oh no, we both have deer killers then. It's hard to imagine them doing it when they're so loving with family.

The deer mine caught was still alive when we got there, but it couldn't stand, it was on its side and thrashing around. There was a small amount of blood coming from its mouth but no teeth marks or wetness on its neck, so I'm not sure if he crushed it's throat or not. Only thing I know is that he couldn't have caused the cut between the legs.

Probably because it was still alive, my dog was very distressed. My partner got there first and said he was doing a bark he's never heard before, lying with his front legs on the deer to keep it in place. My partner had to drag him off the deer and came to get me. There was a small group of women trying to call a local vets. One of them had a small poodley dog who was perfectly behaved. Meanwhile I'm standing there with a murderer who's acting like a complete wild animal.

I tried to stay and help but had to leave because my dog was basically screaming which was distressing everyone including the deer. My partner couldn't leave with the dog because he would scream about me being left behind, he doesn't usually like leaving people behind but never to that degree.

We waited in the car park for a wild life rescue person to arrive, while the women stayed with the deer. They called me an hour later to say it had died. I ended up going back by myself to look and try to figure out what had happened.

Seemed to take my dog a couple days to go back to normal behaviour. That may have been because he could tell the humans were shaken up about it though.

The chase is all for him not the kill. Once it is out of sight or too far away he stops running. He won't keep goign like some hounds

Mines similar, if they run out of sight he usually stops. If he's seen deer in the area before though, then he starts sniffing them out and searching.

Totally blind to anything. Will run through wire fences etc... it is purely instinct at that point

Exactly, mine refuses to even try to get past obstacles normally, till he's chasing something then he's suddenly able to get through anything.

 

[monk58]

@freeofhsv1 Eek! You had a crowd! And animal rescue How horrifying!!!

I feel for you. A nightmare!

Mine well we were out in the middle of fields and it was all over. He was pretty calm and just indifferent when I caught up

Less traumatic for me

The noise and almost distress seeming arousal though is familiar. Mine is not too bad but my friends racing whippet is a monsterous screamer when excited

The yelps and yowls are ear piercing. It is pure go go go adrenline I think from them

Both of ours teeth chatter when really excited

They are what they were bred to be alas

I am so careful to limit any opportunity

 

[freeofhsv1]

@monk58 I know it was so shameful! When they were calling the rescues and saying they had a distressed deer who had been attacked by a dog I was mortified. It's been a year and I'm still too embarrassed to go to that nature area lol.

It deffo changed how I am about nature areas. Previously I'd tried to avoid him chasing deer, but now I'm like he's absolutely never going off lead where we have ever seen a deer.

The chattering sounds funny! Mine is just a screamer when distressed or very excited. He's also a small part mastiff and has an insanely loud and aggressive sounding bark for telling things off (like electric scooters, hates them, they're a whole other issue).

They are what they were bred to be alas

Exactly. It nearly changed how I thought about him until I remembered that he was just following his instincts. It's not like a human becoming a serial killer and knowing the harm they are doing.

 

[monk58]

@freeofhsv1 Oh gosh I feel your pain!

I looked up UK law and for mine at least he jumped out the garden it is classified as inadvertant hunting with a dog. I beleive it technically can be prosecuted but I think it depends on the degree of mitigation and stuff behind the event

Its not like either you or I were doing the really illegal deliberately setting dogs on animals!

However deer are everywhere for us so he does live his life on a lead unless in a really secure space. I too would keep him on in wooded areas.

Did anything further come of it with you? Did the animal rescues see an offence to go further or anything? I suppose it depends on the by laws in specifics areas?

 

[monk58]

@freeofhsv1 The teeth chattering is when they are incredibly excited and they use it to calm I think

It is odd!

Yeah we bred them and they don't fit in the modern world...

In the past the dogs that were useful brought stuff back for the pot!

 

[stephen_nz]

@monk58 My terrier is like that. Only interested in prey until he catches it.

 

[stephen_nz]

@freeofhsv1 I did not think a whippet would take on a deer by itself. I’m impressed. (I know it probably sucks for you as the owner).

Our terrier is a rat assassin. Interesting thing though is he’s strangely attentive while hinting. We say “dead” when we want to call him off a rat and he drops it right away. That’s what I yelled when he was chasing the rabbit. Yelled “dead” and he stopped and looked at me. We were both surprised. Awkward pause. Immediately followed with “do you want a treat? Let’s go get a treat!” (He did in fact, want a treat).

 

[freeofhsv1]

@stephen_nz

I did not think a whippet would take on a deer by itself. I’m impressed. (I know it probably sucks for you as the owner).

Me either before having one lol. He is bigger than a normal whippet (24kg) and the deer was a male, probably about 1 year old, so not fully grown but at least twice the size of my dog.

Interesting thing though is he’s strangely attentive while hinting.

That is interesting! Do you know if terriers used for hunting had to listen to their owners while doing so? With whippets it seems like they were bred just to follow their instincts, once their prey drive is triggered they're blind and deaf to anything else. I suspect it works well for racing too, not being distracted by the other dogs or crowds.

 

[stephen_nz]

@freeofhsv1 Thanks. It was a huge deal when he listened midchase.

He has a whippet friend and the two of them will run for hours. He was the fastest dog I had seen until we saw the whippet go full tilt. Beautiful to watch them run.

 

[luvpinky]

@pixeloriousspriteson You're going to get conflicting and mixed reviews on everything you do as a dog owner. If your dog loves fetch, play fetch. I would do it in moderation, maybe break it up with mini training sessions in between if you find your dog is getting hyper-focused on the game.

As for letting your dog rip apart stuffies, my dog loves it too. They're dogs, it's instinctual and you've got to give them healthy outlets for what they love to do or it will come out in other unhealthy ways.

 

[pixeloriousspriteson]

@luvpinky Honestly I need this guidance for everything I read. Trying to learn how to be a good dog owner in this internet age (and with my internet habits) is so confusing.

 

[zakknight]

@luvpinky Ya, we hear so much about how important it is to give your dog a job right? Like everyone understands that for herding breeds especially. My dog is a mix of one breed bred to retrieve birds and one bred to hunt small game through underbrush. He needs a “job” too, just needs a different job than a border collie or an Australian cattle dog.

 

[seanmonty]

@pixeloriousspriteson It’s not ‘bad’ by any means. The problem with fetch is that it’s a repetitive exercise where there’s no actual satisfying end to it, it can become an eternal loop of sorts and mentally for the dog, it can become a stereotypical or obsessive behaviour. Now you could absolutely revamp the game where after a repetition you include something else, and after a few reps they get to chase something that gives them something to do further (shred/lick/sniff etc)
Dogs gain stamina way easy so tiring him out with long fetch sessions is just going to give you an antsy athlete

ETA: no. It’s not practicing reactivity unless the fetch takes her towards something that triggers a reactive episode. The whole rehearsing predatory sequence thing is wildly misunderstood in context