I’m just feeling so lost. What is next?

[oceanwaves]

@jamiem Um I'm not sure The breed is very "pushy" in and of themselves. I would just worry about her hurting herself or her teeth or getting too excited and ingesting a rock.

What I would move towards is getting YOU involved in high drive stuff like that so she can start including you innately in some of her decision making outside the home. It sounds like she definitely would love to "pull some weight" with a cart or a backpack.

Did you know that's why their tails are docked? So they wouldn't get in the way of the cart? Rotties used to travel long distances with carts and help with livestock on the war path with soldiers. They had to be tough and long winded and walk for miles pulling weight. I think if you start incorporating something like that, get her a weighted back pack or cart and just go go go until she's tired, she will probably start looking forward to it. It will be her purpose and she will chill out a little bit.

Of course talk with your vet about this and get her checked out to see if she can first. Ask about how much weight your vet suggests she can carry.

As an example my reactive hound (who is NOT food motivated lol) really relaxed a lot when I started doing smellwork with her. Like something instinctual clicked in her tracking hound brain and she stopped feeling the need to "search" for stuff to react to because I was letting her "search" in a game I was attached to and we both played. It helped out bond because I meant something instinctually important to her that "spoke" to her.

Your girl wants to be pushy/pully and if you can train her to start doing her "work" with her backpack or cart that may alleviate her "searching" for a job to do herself. They want to work! That's why we bred them!

Good luck!

 

[dee365]

@jamiem My boy is a GS/Boxer mix with two other breeds, and was having a lot of issues with him on walks. I started to implement “work” things like the other user said, and sure he isn’t always perfect, however his behavior has improved a lot. He doesn’t react to a lot of doggos that come by (unless they’re off leash), and it was a simple thing as finding sticks and making him heel, spin, prance, sit, etc. for his stick.

Perhaps you could also make a rock area for your doggo? Somewhere in your apartment, like a sandbox but with rocks to just push around diff sized ones? Or take rocks with you on walks, and make her work for the rock to push around for a bit. Then take it back, and repeat when she’s doing well.

 

[hiccup]

@jamiem Couple things

• Drop tug and fetch for 2 weeks to a month . Substitute with treat search and toy search. If she's uninterested, let her be.

-Definitely drop the wrestling.

-Drop the obedience training.

-Just do the walks

Some dogs can't handle the adrenaline rush and are wired constantly. It's also possible your dog has a naturally low threshold so depending on the activity level on the day and preceding days, you notice inconsistent reactions to scenarios that should have caused your dog to react.

I've had to kill those games almost completely and play it once or twice a week for 5-10 minutes at the most.

Obedience training on top of it is like trying to teach a kid calculus at Disneyland.

Trigger stacking is another factor that plays into your equation.

Moreover a 1 yr old dog is going to be inconsistent and the teenage phase is a handful. Your dog is also in the midst of the fear period by the looks of it.

Please consider all this and remember you have to stay calm and patient in this phase. Don't expect immediate results without being consistent and studying your dog on a daily basis.

Happy to answer any further questions.

 

[jamiem]

@hiccup Happy to drop wrestling TBH. She’s too strong for it anyway, and it always prompts zoomies. But why drop the obedience training? I was under the impression that solidifying those commands and building her strength in following those commands was critical. Or did I misunderstand the purpose of it?

As an aside, she enjoys obedience training. She’s so happy and focused in, so I assumed it was positive but I’m open to the possibility that it’s not helping her.

 

[hiccup]

@jamiem This is a rather unpopular view but there's a few reasons why I feel obedience training is not the solution for some dogs.

• A dog around it's triggers is unlikely to obey because it's over threshold and will not listen. The only thing it's doing is frustrating you because she won't listen. And frustrating the dog because we don't end up addressing why she's over threshold in the first place and the pattern repeats day after day.
• obedience training is largely carried out with treats. Dogs are food motivated. So they'll perhaps it for the food. What they need in situations of triggers is the ability to self regulate and have agency and choice to cope with the situation. Obedience doesn't teach coping skills. It's perhaps a fun activity to do with your dog.
• obedience training uses operant conditioning. Operant conditioning is deadly tricky and while it works perfectly at home, it's fairly common to reenforce the exact opposite of what people intend outside. "Hey, if you look at that dog and lose your mind, I'll give you a reward". The more common scenario is that done poorly, the dog has no idea what is expected of it anyway. And this isn't anyones fault. Operant conditioning is tricky because dogs learn by association in very nuanced ways.
• the last reason is a personal one. Commanding my dog just doesn't come naturally to me. I hate it. I don't expect anyone to obey me or order people around in real life. I just found it unnatural for me as a personality to constantly command the dog. Especially on the walks. It drained me physically, mentally and emotionally. Ceding control gave me back control ten fold.

Each of these points have their own nuance more than I can articulate in a post. But obedience training doesn't seem to be working for you either.

There's a philosophy of dog training that is built on respecting the agency of a dog by appreciating it's subtle body cues and striving for two way communication. It flipped my life around.

There's a book called "how to raise a puppy" by Turid Rugaas. I wish I had read it sooner. It talks in detail about this. I highly recommend reading it.

 

[oceanwaves]

@hiccup Okay so I agree with everything you said but I wouldn't ask an owner to stop doing an activity that both her and her dog enjoy. I would maybe rephrase it as "stop RELYING on obedience training to intercept over threshold behavior and train in that sphere with a different method."

Obedience training has it's advantages and one of them is bonding so @jamiem I would take that with a grain of salt. No offense to the original commenter.

 

[hiccup]

@oceanwaves None taken. Though there are other ways to bond with a dog that are more calming. And in cases of reactivity where everything has been tried, I still feel it's a valid recommendation to stop obedience training due to the mechanics of thresholds and arousal.

 

[jamiem]

@hiccup I’ll take that recommendation on the book, and I’ll start with obedience just for fun instead of relying on it. I think I’d like to add more “searching” types of training too, to keep her engaged. I think she sees the training as play anyway to be honest, and that might be why it’s not effective in her stressful and triggering situations.

 

[christopherb]

@jamiem Training can be very arousing (in the sense of neurological excitement level -- positive or negative) for some dogs. If you don't already, you should always provide a way for her to calm down afterwards. The core arousal-lowering behaviors for dogs are sleeping, chewing, licking, and sniffing.

My dog gets extremely easily overaroused during trick training and obedience training, even in low arousal environments like our house and using low value rewards. He's just very easily aroused. I combat this by 1) scatterfeeding his rewards onto a towel/snuffle mat/grass so he has to sniff for them a little and 2) giving him a licking/chewing enrichment item afterwards, like a frozen Lickimat or Toppl.

Arousal can be positive or negative, but high arousal also means a high propensity to flip from positive to negative really quickly. This means that an overaroused dog is on a hair trigger even if they're aroused in a positive way. It makes it hard to work on reactivity because you have less "breathing room" in her arousal level.

 

[hiccup]

@christopherb Thank you for coming into this thread so articulately. How did you figure out that your dog was getting over aroused with obedience training?

 

[christopherb]

@hiccup Overarousal can look a little different from dog to dog. He was showing his classic signs of it -- inability to settle afterwards, panting (he basically does not pant ever except in extreme heat), following me around the house, getting "crazy eyes", etc. Even when he did stop panting and lay down, he would stare at me unblinkingly, ready to spring into action if I gave him a cue. He was noticeably more amped up, from just doing basic tricks for kibble. He is not actually a high drive dog or a highly motivated dog, he's just easily overaroused.

 

[hiccup]

@christopherb This! In addition I noticed my dog would go through his array of tricks with a single specific prompt in the presence of treats and food which struck me as really weird. And bringing him back to focus was a lost cause after that.

Glad to know I'm not the only one who noticed this.

Thank you.

 

[jamiem]

@christopherb Oh Margot loves frozen treats! I don’t even think of adding it to her regular routine to combat excitement.

 

[davecb]

@jamiem >My rottie is my first dog,

So a few things: first is have you worked at all with a trainer or taken dog training classes with her?

Some big protective breeds will fill whatever space the are allowed to fill, if you don't early on have exacting boundaries. And since this is your first dog, it's easy to see how that would happen.

I'd really urge you to work with a trainer who specializes in big powerful dogs who are young and jerk-like.

And I'd also muzzle train her.

>She deserves to have playdates and enjoy the groomer and be able to run at the park too. A

She may not want that: plenty of perfectly ok dogs don't want to, "play" with other adult dogs.

And an adult Rottie is just not a good candidate to play with random dogs. Or to go run at a dog park.

 

[jamiem]

@davecb After reading a lot of posts in this subreddit, I’ve realized it’s possible she ISN’T interested in doggie play dates. She likes to play with people, and that’s pretty much it. I think her upset towards other dogs is a good indicator that she probably isn’t interested in puppy play dates.

Margot isn’t currently seeing a trainer, but she will be soon. I don’t currently use a muzzle because it seriously freaks her out. She gets really scared, and will pace and cry. It’s awful, you can’t get her to keep it on. She does like her head harness though.

I admit I’m still learning, and I appreciate your advice!

 

[davecb]

@jamiem

I don’t currently use a muzzle because it seriously freaks her out.

I get it but this:

we’ve tried allowing her to make whatever decision made her comfortable.

and

When she’s outside in public, it’s a literal nightmare. She will bark and growl and lunge at any dog ( or dog-like thing like wagons and suitcases) regardless of distance.

I know this is hard to hear but she's a Rottie, not a Chihuahua. And if she looks at someone wrong and they stub a toe, they may call AC and claim your dog attacked.

You are the only person Margot has in her life who cares about her. So, if she doesn't like being muzzled, hire a trainer, like yesterday (it's that important), and teach Margot that a muzzle is ok. Yes she doesn't like it now, but you can teach her to accept it.

A head harness will do nothing at all if Margot decides that some scary person is in her way. A muzzle may save her life.

A great deal of dog training is teaching our dogs that while they may not like X now, eventually they may be just fine with X or, actively LIKE X. Plenty of dogs like getting in the car because it means they're going someplace fun. And many of those dogs may have been scared of the car at first. It's the same thing with a muzzle.

With a big scary looking dog, who is having meltdowns in public, a muzzle will stop anyone claiming that Margot bit them. And you want and need that.

 

[jamiem]

@davecb I appreciate your frank honesty, and after reading more posts about muzzles, I think you’re right. Thank you very much!

 

[mama357]

@davecb Enjoy the groomer? Most dogs tolerate but don't enjoy the groomer.

And most dog trainers and vets don't recommend dog parks etc. due potential for attacks etc.

 

[davecb]

@mama357

Enjoy the groomer? Most dogs tolerate but don't enjoy the groomer.

You responded to me, not OP, but FWIW some dogs do enjoy being groomed.

 

[jmh1030]

@jamiem "she doesn’t deserve to live her life in an enclosed space just because she is reactive and uncomfortable"

Idk as a human I like being inside a lot and not interacting with the world. I dont want to dismiss what you are going through or feeling, but it is ok to give up on doing things she isnt comfortable with. If you can figure out a routine where she only does the things she is comfortable with, and doesnt do the things she isnt comfortable with, I'd lean that direction

As for walks have you tried blinders? Might be worth looking into