How likely that a reputable breeder missidendifies the breed? Like 0%?

[akilah]

@carlawalker A lot of the poodle mixes can be a lot more than what is expected. People slip various breeds in sometimes intentionally or not because unfortunately, a lot of the poo mix is about money.

I have Afghan Hounds and I'd never misidentify one. I also discuss things like coat potentials with new buyers because they can be heavily coated like their father or much more naked like one of his daughters.

However, the other side effect is that these crosses have no consistency. I'm currently grooming a friends golden/poodle mix and he has pretty straight, soft, fluffy hair with no curl. As he is maturing he is getting harder guard hairs like a golden but no golden double coat or patterning. He is pure fluff. He has curly siblings. It can be very, very hit or miss.

 

[carlawalker]

@akilah Huh, neat. We're already looking at breeders in our area for a pure bread this time. 2 or so years down the line I figure as most that I've found basically had a littler called for until one or both parents retire.

For our pup, if the seller is still around. I'll just call if I can find. See what happens. I assume anybody not a mill would have some sort of paper trail.

 

[akilah]

@carlawalker They should. I have photos of every dog I've ever bred and can go in depth discussing them. I consider that the norm. You can always do the breed identification tests.

Waiting lists are good things. I may have a litter next year or the year after. I'm open with people about it. I know people want puppies now but raising a litter is a lot. Between working and maintaining my other dogs, I gotta try to make good decisions for them. But making friends with the breeder is nice as well. My last litter, everyone is connected on social media and they send each other presents for the litters birthday and christmass.

 

[seekingservant]

@carlawalker OP, would you buy a Honda Civic disguised as a BMW for the price and fake specs of a BMW? No, right? Not saying you specifically sought this out with your current dog, as I read in your comments that your are this dog's third owner.

That is what is going on with mixed breed breeders. Some of them may not be bad "breeders" per se, but they are not breeding for breed specific purpose, because that doesn't exist for designer dogs; they are breeding for quick money while the trend is hot and the uninformed keep buying. They are false advertising these designer dogs as "purebred," "top of the line," "predictable temperment," at the cost of an actual purebred dog, when in fact they are not as listed. Then, more and more of them appear and are falsely advertised to friends, friends of friends, family, neighbors, and strangers.

This brings us to our current abomination of Doodle mutts. Cockapoos may be one of the first original Doodle mutts because they've been around for so long and are constantly seen and sold as "purebred."

I am not a breeder, I'm just on this sub because I work in the dog industry, but I can say this- the constant designer dogs I have worked with the past 3 years, I have never seen such an absurd amount of anxiety and behavioral issues in my whole 20 years of experience.

 

[lumiere]

@carlawalker So, the general opinion on this sub (and most dog subs) is that anybody breeding mixed breeds is a bad breeder. Full stop. Bad.

I'm going to have a lot of people disagree with me because I don't nessissarily believe that. I believe that a breeder's goal should be to prevent suffering. Suffering in their puppies and in the owner.

To me, this means a few things:

1.) Proper health testing of all breeds involved. This involves way more than DNA testing. This means that they should have their hips x-rayed under OFA or Pennhip. It depends on the breeds, but many will recommend getting their heart and eyes checked by a specialist as well. You want to do ALL tests recommended by both breed clubs of both parents. This information should also be available to you.

2.) Always take the puppy back during any point of their life, no questions asked. The breeder should care about where their puppy is and never want them to be in a shelter. They should microchip their puppies before they go home, so if they do end up in a shelter, the chip can be traced back to the breeder. They should encourage the buyers to bring the puppy back if they want to get rid of it and if they do want to rehome them to inform the breeder of where they're going.

3.) A breeder should breed for a specific temperment to meet a specific family. This means that if you are breeding a hunting dog with high energy, make sure these puppies are going to go to homes where they hunt regularly. If you want to sell to families with children, make sure your dogs are good with children. If you want to sell to a family that's very active, make sure you are breeding a dog with a good amount of energy. You want to make sure that you have an ideal home in mind for the temperment of the puppies being bred. If a not-so-ideal home comes along, you need to recognize that they would not be a good fit with your line.

4.) A breeder should be an open support line to their buyers. This means that they want to have a good relationship with their buyers, so if they are struggling, they will ask their breeder for help. The breeder should have tons of information about basic training and how to deal with basic puppy issues. If a buyer comes to the breeder and the breeder doesn't know what to do, they should want to learn. They want to make sure that their buyers are suffering a little as possible in living with their new puppy.

5.) They should socialize their puppies beginning at birth. Socialization is very important for puppies to grow and become good dogs. A good breeder will expose their puppies to different sounds, textures, and experiences. This usually includes the sound of metal hitting metal, cups falling, chains clanking, the feel of carpet vs. A metal floor vs. A wooden floor vs. Grass, and new experiences like being in a running car, being comfortable in a crate, learning to use the bathroom outside, and even going through an obstacle course to deal with frustration.

6.) Now, this part really just applies to mixed breeds. Their are certain breeds that shouldn't be mixed. You want your puppies to have a good body structure that allows them to move freely and not struggle. Their are some breeds that if you mix together, you really don't know how they're going to be proportioned because the parents are so different. This means no greyhound-Mastiff mixes. No german shepherd-corgi mixes. The breeder should have a general idea of how their puppies should look. Mixes can be unpredictable in shape, but the breeder should have a good understanding of what their puppies could look like.

7.) This is also important for mixes. Mixes are less predictable. They haven't been selectively bred through hundreds of years. The breeder should be very open to their buyers about the unpredictability of size within their litters. Even if the parents are a similar size, the puppies could be a lot bigger or smaller. There are other things that may be unpredictable in a litter, like coat texture, that the breeders should also be open about to their buyers. Doodle breeders should also talk about how important grooming socialization is to their buyers and encourage them to go to a groomer at the beginning of their life.

So, I don't think all mixed breed breeders are bad. I think some can really be good as long as they do the correct things to lessen as much suffering as they can. Being a mixed breeder is going to be a lot harder. It's going to be hard to find dogs to breed without purchasing those dogs from sketchy sources. It's tough to be a breeder and even harder to be a mixed breeder, but I think it can be done right. Now, doodles are a fad breed, which means that there are A LOT of people breeding them unethically. It can be really hard to find a responsible doodle breeder, but not impossible.

If you are interested in learning more about this breeding perspective, check out the "Honest Dog Breeders Podcast" and the "Functional Dog Breeders Podcast." They share some really good information and perspectives.

 

[awomannameddamaris]

@carlawalker Remember that DNA tests are not necessarily correct. They’re not even admissible in court because of how wrong they often are

 

[fannypack]

@carlawalker Welshies aren't a very common breeds, so it's possible but doubtful. Then again, I have seen ads for people breeding poodles to Afghan hounds, Brittanies, Chows, Akitas, English shepherds, and Affenpinschers. How big is your dog? A WSS should be about 40#.

The dog we had growing up was supposed to be a cockapoo, but he was a dead ringer for a Portuguese Water Dog. Kid me was convinced he was a rare, exotic breed instead of a mutt, lol.

A lot of "designer" mixes aren't 50/50, and multigenerational dogs can be pretty diverse. My parents have a Cavalier/Bichon that just looks like a big, slightly wonky Cav. Both parents were mixed, the puppies were all over the place in appearance. Breeders of dogs like that care more about availability than lineage.

And my sister had a dog that was sold as a puggle (pug/beagle). It just looks like a cream-colored pug, could pass for purebred. We did a DNA test, and it came back 88% pug, 11% beagle, and 1% shih tzu.

 

[sustainableblueberry]

@carlawalker The thing that’s flooring me is the not knowing what puppy they sold, and giving the totally wrong gender to the original puppy buyer. It’s a huge question as to how that even happens.

In all likelihood, you have fake “papers”. There is no breed called a cockerpoo. It’s a hybrid of breeds, a “mix” breed or “designer dog”. Sure, there may be recordings of the lines, but more than likely it is from one of the paper mills that will give papers to people just for money, so they can charge more for the puppy because “it has papers” The papers that come with a puppy is only relevant to show ownership of the dog, and to give lines for breeding or to show in dog sports. It’s not really what most non-dog people think it is. A microchip can prove ownership better, and mixed breeds don’t do confirmation shows, nor do they breed and mix breeds can do other sports but they have different forms for that. I also would not look to one of those DNA tests for breed type—they are a novelty and really just more of a money grab than a way to prove what mix a dog really is. They are getting better with breed type, but they are still not necessarily accurate. Like others have said, when you mix breeds, there is no predictive standard look they will have. In the same litter of puppies, some could look more spaniel some would look more poodle, and they can look differently based on how the particular genes line up in each puppy’s genetic makeup. It’s a crapshoot at what you get in each puppy even with the same parents. Your puppy very well may be nothing but cocker/poodle, and just not look like what you imagine a cockapoo should look like.

I might get some flack, but ethical breeding is not to make puppies for pet homes. You breed to preserve a breed standard and the breed(s) you love to make them healthier and around for the future. Not every puppy that comes out of the litter is fit to be a show dog, nor one that is a great representation of the breed enough to be bred. Those puppies go to families who want pets, so yes you do produce pets, but it’s not the goal of ethically breeding dogs. Mixing breeds is against the breeder code of ethics for every breed club I know of. Does this mean your dog was bred unethically? In most breeding circles, that alone is a sign of poor breeding ethics. But different breeders have different goals, and this puppy was produced to be a pet, and could be a lovely companion. The papers and the fact it is a hybrid or what the breeders ethics were is not really relevant now.

 

[carlawalker]

@sustainableblueberry Thanks, this is super informative. Appreciate all the info