How likely that a reputable breeder missidendifies the breed? Like 0%?

[carlawalker]

I've got one for you. Confirming our suspicions.

We got a dog a few years ago. Told he was a cockerpoo. Papers and everything from his breeder. Breeder seems to be legit.

But neither of us agreed he was one. His hair too long and flowy and he looks too much like a spaniel. Until we found stuff on pure bred Welsh springer spaniels.

We went from 90% sure he was missidendified to 99.9%. I'm talking from puppy pictures of other dogs and adult dogs.

Were 3rd owners. Got him at 6 months. The original guy was a trucker, got him thousand plus miles away. Realized it was a boy so they gave him a girl after, but he kept this one? Then he went to family friends who got him for their 80 year old parents. So he immediately went back with the kids until we took him. So his history is weird.

But red flags is. Oh, you thought you bought a girl? Here, come grab an other pup for a discount. Aren't most of the litters claimed way before?

I know it's written with a bias. But I also want to confirm my bias. Haha

Were likely going to do a DNA test to see. But curious on you guys take on the situation.

Unfortunately I will not post any personally identifiable information. Including pictures of my dog. Sorry..

Edit.

To the dude who pmd me and said I was an irresponsible POS for getting a mixed breed dog, then have the guts to "argue" against it. Get a fucking life dude. I'm genuinely curious. It's not my domain, so I asked a question. In a sense, it's a rescue I got, but he happened to have papers. We're third owners.

So thank you all for those who were nice in your response. I learnt quite a lot from this. And to the guy with the DM. Please realize we don't all follow the AKC and some people are just curious and want to know more about their pets lineage.

 

[frankda4th]

@carlawalker

cockerpoo

This is all most people need to know that this "breeder" isn't reputable at all. Any expectations that they behave like an actual reputable breeder would go out the window with that one word, including selling a dog under a designer mix label even if it isn't one.

Since he's (likely) a mix, it's actually not unlikely that he doesn't look how you would expect this mix to look. There is no standard when mixing breeds, so puppies could come out looking like either parent, a mix of the two, or any combination of traits.

 

[carlawalker]

@frankda4th Around here it's a super popular breed. Like mentioned below. He came with generic testing for abnormalities and first run of vet, chip etc.

I understand it's not a recognized breed as it's not a purebred. But what is so dangerous / unethical with crossing two healthy dogs with good temperaments? Especially these two. A mixed dog that's one of, of not the most popular dog breeds atm.

I'm curious on your take as I wasn't expecting 2 replies saying how unethical and crazy it is to make this breed.

I say he doesn't look like the mix. Cause he doesn't look like any cocker poodle mix I've ever seen ever. Online, in person. Not a single one has a double coat like him. Looking forn "straight hair" cocker poodle mix comes up with nothing remotely similar. Well get genetic testing and know for sure. At this point we're 90+% sure he's a pure bred Welsh Spaniel. From temperament description, to countless pictures of the dogs online, to his insane natural birding instinct. He's got none of the poodle physical or personality traits but all of the Welsh Spaniel. Color, fur, personality. And I can't stress this enough. His crazy obsession with birds.

Then there's the hunters. We bring him out to the woods for long hikes and see hunters. 100% of them asked what spaniel variety he was. Recently one guy who breeds hunting English spaniel said he's definitely not a mix.

So as you can see, I've derailed quite a bit and just have questions as I'm genuinely interested in you guys opinions on this as it's not something I'm very knowledgeable about.

 

[frankda4th]

@carlawalker It is not a breed. Full stop. It's a mix.

Genetic testing isn't health testing and basic vet care is less than the bare minimum that would be required from a reputable breeder.

The problem with breeding mixes is because you aren't mixing good quality from either breed, since good quality dogs aren't being sold by actual reputable breeders and being allowed to be used in mixes. You're mixing two already poorly bred dogs with likely crap temperaments, genetic issues, and structural problems together to get a complete unknown.

There is no way for anyone to predict what those puppies will look like or act like. It's a crapshoot and the people producing these mixes are doing it solely for profit, since they don't care what happens to the dog once it's been sold.

As for your dog, go ahead and do testing on him. Don't expect it to come back purebred. Poodles and cocker spaniels come in a variety of colours, and again, when mixing breeds, it's impossible to predict what the mixed genetics will be expressed. Poodles are a hunting breed, as are cocker spaniels, so working drive isn't surprising.

And considering this dog came from a bad breeder, it honestly wouldn't surprise me if there are even more breeds in the mix and that the designer mix name was being used primarily as a marketing thing.

 

[carlawalker]

@frankda4th Doesn't look like I'll get the real answer unless I drop a boat load of money for actual sequencing. Found an article. On CBC and they tested 4 companies. 2 unknown but good idea for breeds, one great Dane with its lineage as purebred for 4 generations and a human.

One didn't have any info on a mixed dog, the other said it was something completely wrong.

The great Dane was identified properly once 100 %, an other said he was a pure bread chihuahua and an other said Dane 90 and 10% something else.

The human came back as a mixed breed dog from 2 spots. 4 diff dogs both. So yeah, the testing is crap. As they claim themselves. If we dotn have a match, we guess to the closest generic.

Real testing is doable, but from what I can see is full DNA sequencing and even then its more accurate but also not guaranteed. Cost I seen was over 2 grand.

 

[pbev]

@carlawalker Both Embark and (to a slightly lesser extent) Wisdom Panel are accurate DNA tests for dogs. Embark is around $200 but is usually on sale for much less. That CBC article is pretty bogus and not scientific in any way. There are definitely dog DNA tests that are terrible though and just trying to make a quick buck, so you have to make sure you buy one of the good ones. Check out the subreddit r/DoggyDNA for more info on that. I think a DNA test will be the only real way for you to get your answer, but my bet is that your pup probably is a mix but heavily inherited the spaniel side. It can happen in people too! Sometimes kids can highly resemble one parent but not the other.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@pbev That CBC article drives me batty. "We tested DNA an apple and two companies said it was an apple and two said it was an orange, I guess DNA testing just isn't that accurate!" Maybe that stray dog from an area known to have village dogs is, in fact, a village dog and not part belgian malinois? Reading the article never fails to get me fired up about bad journalism and bad science.

 

[carlawalker]

@pbev Thanks! I'll check it out. We're super curious. We for traits, it's absolutely a thing. My friends are a mixed couple. One kid came out mixed, the other came out white. Twins.. Hahaha

I'll get a DNA test done once I read into it some more over there..

Thanks!

 

[zeebird]

@pbev Here's a sneak peek of /r/DoggyDNA using the top posts of the year!

#1: What type of dog is that? Wisdom Panel: Yes. | 98 comments

#2: I got this sweet baby at a shelter over the summer, for free during a Clear The Shelters month. I knew she was a GSD, but I didn't realize she was THAT MUCH of a GSD | 65 comments

#3: A week before my dog passed, we did a DNA test. A week after she was gone, we got the results back. | 59 comments

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[goodnesskindness]

@carlawalker An ethically bred dog would never be bred to create mutts. Ethical breeders don't do that.

 

[rickymargan]

@carlawalker Someone with a purebred uncommon breed isn't going to lie and call it a designer mix when they could get more money selling it for what it is.

When you take a Poodle and mix it with another dog, you can generally guess what the offspring will look like because each one is only getting one copy of the "Poodle genes" from either side, namely: long hair, curly hair, and furnishings. When you mix 2 Poodle mixes together (like say, a cockapoo with a cockapoo), you're jumbling up the end result. Some dogs might have curly hair, some might have wavy, some might have straight, some might have furnishings, some won't. This causes these mixes past the first generation to have a very inconsistent look.

Also just know that having a designer mix registered doesn't really mean anything. The registries used for them (usually Continental Kennel Club) were specifically made for puppy mills that couldn't get registered elsewhere.

I'd recommend heading to r/dogs and reading their sidebar page on how to find a reputable breeder if you have plans to not get a rescue in the future.

 

[mutambo]

@carlawalker Anyone that breeds mixed breeds on purpose is not responsible or ethical. You are correct about a lot of the red flags you noticed.

Your spaniel mix looks like a spaniel because mixed breeds don't breed true. They can come out all looking different. The puppies don't just get 50/50 genetics from each parent. Imagine you have a bag with 50 blue gummy bears and 50 green gummy bears. If you were to pick 50 gummy bears at random, you likely would not get a perfect 50/50 mix of blue and green gummy bears. You might get 30 blue and 20 green, or 40 blue and 10 green, etc. That's kinda how genetics work with mixed breeds. Your guy most likely just takes on more spaniel phenotypes.

 

[carlawalker]

@mutambo Curious. How is a mixed breed a bad thing? If both parents have good genetics. Wouldn't more diversity be good for the potential health of the dog?

Not like cockerpoos are a rare breed. They are everywhere and around here you can register as a specific cockerpoos breeder. My friend has 2, at the park there's a handful of them and none of them have long straight hair. I've never seen a poodle with straight hair except for shows where they straighten it. I'm not a breeder or go out looking for it. But in this type of dog, to me he's pure spaniel.

I understand genetics aren't 5050, but this is more like 90/10 kinda thing. I think just a genetic test will do the trick. I'm also curious on if the results of genetics abnormalities is actually him though. The paperwork we got was for a mixed breed dog, series of tear, worms, chip and genetics marker testing.

Anyways. Thanks for info. More to come

 

[mutambo]

@carlawalker There's really no need to purposefully breed mixes when we have shelters full of them. Ethical purebred breeders are breeding to better their breed and to keep the breed going (preservation breeding). There's nothing to better or preserve in mixed breeds. All it does is add to the shelter problem. Like you said in your post, the breeder you used didn't even have homes lined up for all the puppies. A responsible breeder wouldn't do that (but very typical with mixed breed byb), and a lot of byb or mills will dump their unsold puppies at a shelter or rescue. Some mills and byb will even sell their puppies for a discounted price to resale rescues to recover some of their costs while adding to the shelter population.

On top of that, hybrid vigor (more diversity as you put it) does not actually help them typically. Mixing different tempermates and different body structures doesn't always go well (I'd even say it rarely goes well). I've seen a lot of designer mixes with very bad tempermates/behavior problems due to the parent breeds having vastly different tempermates or jobs. For example, mixing a breed that's bred to protect animals (like a livestock guardian) with a breed that's bred to hunt animals could cause them to have instincts from both sides, but those would be conflicting instincts leaving the dog confused or unpredictable. Mixing different body types can also cause issues. Well-bred purebreds are bred to standards that outline exactly how the dogs skeletal structure should be. This is done to have consistency within the breed, to make sure they are physically able to do the jobs they were originally bred for, and for their health and comfort (skeletal deformities cause pain, incorrect gate causes arthritis, etc). When you mix different body types together, you don't end up with a balanced dog. Let's say you mix a golden and a poodle for a golden doodle. They might end up with the large body of the golden and the legs and head of a poodle, etc. They sometimes look like you patchworked a bunch of traits from different breeds and glued them together. This strips them of their purpose and can cause them pain later in life. Tempermate and structure matter a lot, and those things are lost when you mix breeds. They also aren't guaranteed to lose the bad traits from the parent breeds. You could end up with a dog that displays the worst of both parent breeds.

Another thing to consider is breeding stock. Preservation breeders are not allowing their dogs to go to homes where they will be used to breed mixes. The only breeders willing to do that are unethical. This means that the breeding stock for designer mixes are typically not well bred and can have tempermate issues or poor conformation. The parents aren't well-bred, so the puppies aren't going to inherit great traits from them.

I worked with dogs professionally for about 8 years. When I was grooming, I saw a lot of designer mixes, especially doodles and poos. None of them were healthier than a well-bred purebred. Many doodles I did had alopecia (common in byb poodles), hormonal issues like Addisons disease or Cushings (also common in byb poodles), many had skin issues, and none of them had balanced bodies or good conformation. The well bred poodles I worked on never had those issues.

Ethical breeders do testing on the parents prior to breeding to ensure they aren't passing down genetic conditions associated with their breed. While a few mixed breed breeders do some testing, they typically aren't doing the extensive testing ethical breeders do (orthopedic testing, genetic testing, tempermate testing, checking eyes, heart, etc), and all the orthopedic testing goes out the window once they mix conflicting body types together.

I could go on forever, but I think this is a good starting place.

 

[mutambo]

@carlawalker Also, sense you're very stuck on the phenotypes your dog displays, I just want to add that poodle mixes can truly look like anything. I've met golden doodles that look like pure golden retrievers. I've met golden doodles that look like a golden retriever with a slight wave to the coat. I've seen golden doodles that look like they could be a purebred poodle. I've also met labradoodles with a wire coat. Looks are very deceiving. You can not guess a breed mix based on phenotypes alone. You aren't going to find many pictures of "doodle duds" online either.

 

[chrishudges]

@carlawalker No cocker spaniel breeder with quality genetics would allow their dogs to be backyard bred and also no poodle breeders with quality genetics would allow it either.So you’re starting with backyard bred low quality
dogs and then mixing them together.

 

[carlawalker]

@chrishudges We're not original owners. So it's all up on the air. The thing is. The papers for the breeder checks out and they are registered. But again not original owners and we can't 100% verify paperwork etc as who knows..

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@carlawalker Any backyard bred dog can be registered. Also, your dog was most likely registered with the PAL (I think it's called) program which is basically just a pity registry for mixed-breed dogs so they can complete in sports. Your dog came from a backyard breeder, get over it.

 

[carlawalker]

@imagebeastmarkbeast I don't care it's from wherever. He's a good dog. I was just curious in finding the lineage as it's clearly murky.

 

[chrishudges]

@carlawalker Registered doesn’t mean well bred most backyard breeders use registered pet quality dogs.You will notice when you read the dam and sire’s pedigree they will not have titles in front of their name’s proving they are sound enough to be bred.