How do you build respect with you dog?

[eront]

@shpchvr

I have learned through reading that this behavior is related to your dog having no respect for you, and it’s what made me interest in trying to work with other tools, as I am really looking to improve my relationship with her.

Honestly, respect is secondary to what you do as a trainer to teach what you want and build her competence.

You need to scale back and teach what you want. Focus less on leader, more on being teacher. Punishment without teaching doesn't build respect, it builds fear.

I'd scale back and hire a trainer with CCPDT or IAABC accreditation here to teach you how to teach.

 

[notbybreadalone]

@eront Agree. I think respect comes from trust, consistency and follow-through. These are things you would establish in the way you teach your dog. Respect comes naturally if you’re thorough in your training.

 

[eront]

@notbybreadalone I feel like a lot of trainers and training rhetoric ends up focusing on the wrong thing. There's a lot of broad things that are not concepts in their own but secondary to what you're doing.

Energy, leadership, dominance, trust, all of this is a whole hunk of bullshit and just feel good talking points. It's easy to say "you're failing because you don't have trust and your leadership failed." Just, what does this look like? It's not specific at all and this type advice is just super unhelpful and it creates the situation like the one above.

I personally have a home that's built on structured autonomy, agency, consent, where I use heavy scaffolding that progressively loosens to create what I want creating a "perfect practice makes perfect" type situation. Is this leadership? Arguably so, but, why would I even use such a broad word if I'm trying to teach somebody else how to do what I do?

 

[shpchvr]

@eront Super helpful feedback.

 

[notbybreadalone]

@eront Hit the nail on the head!

 

[shpchvr]

@notbybreadalone Thank you. This trainer really harped on respect a lot… I think perhaps I focused on that.

 

[shpchvr]

@eront Thanks for this; after just the consultation trainer and what he said, I probably narrowed in too much on “respect”.

It’s not what I know and if you didn’t read the original post, something felt off and with the trainer so I sought advice, and terminated working with him.

Will look into both those options, thank you!

 

[lizzrr]

@shpchvr How is a No a correction? It’s definitely not in positive reinforcement. What do we do when a dog gets up from place? Be quiet, walk her back, maybe lure with an additional treat. And then? Continue staying silent, walk a bit back but less than before and then quickly go back to reward with treat and verbal praise. We wanna have a marker word, but we don’t need a correction word. Cause that’s something we don’t do I’’ pretty sure the “e collar keeping her in check” only erased her symptoms and body language but never actually taught her something…

 

[teksoft]

@shpchvr You’ve gotten some good responses already. Seeing that where you’re reading says behavior is related to respect means you’re reading the wrong material. Behavior is related to reinforcement and punishment. It would benefit you and your dog to take ten steps back and learn more about reinforcement and punishment: what they are, how they work, and how to use reinforcers all around you. Don’t Shoot the Dog and How Dogs Learn are good starter books for this. By doing this foundational reading, you’ll be ahead of the average dog owner when you work with a credentialed trainer and you can get more out of each lesson.

Personally, I would get rid of the ecollar, at least for now. Your dog is confused and it’s up to you as the intelligent human to learn how to use reinforcement well to teach your dog what you want. Having the ability to correct your dog whenever you feel like they’re doing something wrong without your dog having a strong understanding of the right thing to do and a strong reinforcement history for doing that thing isn’t fair to the dog.

 

[froggyfan1]

@teksoft Agreed. I used to be positive reinforcement only with my dog but when I didn't see progress, I did my research and found a trainer who was so successful. I use balanced training but I can't stress enough that anyone who considers it, must do research because when done incorrectly, you can fuck up a dog so easily. (Michael ellis admits that in the early days of e collars, he had screwed up a dog and then he had to step back and learn). If something doesn't work, then you gotta turn around and find another way.

If op sees this:
Play hide and seek with using a whistle or special word to recall your dog and then reward with their favorite treat. This is my favorite game to play with my dog and it's so easy to learn.

 

[eront]

@froggyfan1

I used to be positive reinforcement only with my dog but when I didn't see progress

Did you go to a certified trainer? Because anyone who trains in one quadrant will fail, and decent force-free trainers use all or only exclude one quadrant.

The only time I've seen it fail is by people who don't graduate to a certified trainer from chain store trainers.

 

[froggyfan1]

@eront I did see a certified trainer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying +R doesn't work, in fact I use it a ton when teaching new commands. I just can't rely on it alone.

 

[eront]

@froggyfan1 What certs did they have? I know you posted about resource guarding to the point you were afraid of euth in the past and mentioned a pet store trainer, Victoria Stillwell and Zak George and that's why I'm asking. It's like using a squirt gun to put out a wildfire.

Of course you can't rely on +R alone. No force-free trainer who's actually qualified with cases like the one you mentioned would ever even consider it. If they were, then they weren't qualified for this job. The use of corrections really is a choice though, and it's a choice that I can respect as long as it's accepted that it is a choice and people are honest that it's punishment.

Acting like some dogs must be trained this one specific way is a gripe of mine. It works for you, it's the human element who may respond better and not always the dog. Hence why you have people coming on here where they have a dog not suited for corrections who want to use them because it's what they want to do and will just ramp up the corrections Shield K9 style and destroy their dog instead of actually training it.

 

[froggyfan1]

@eront My trainer was CCPDT. She was phenomenal and so helpful never had issues. I personally think every dog learns different. Some learn great without the use of corrections, and some learn great with added structure from corrections. A lot of working dogs do wonders with corrections and I feel a correction is necessary to help the dog understand that their actions have consequences. Of course, that doesn't mean you have to abuse the dog.

I like +R as a foundation. But when my dog understands a comand, I use leash pressure and/ecollar to help take that command further. The commands I expect my dog to obey are heel, leave it, stay, come....functional commands. I like teaching my dog tricks, but I'm not going to correct her for ignoring a trick command.

I completely agree that it's wrongful thinking that dogs must be trained ONE way. I think those who jump into correction training without learning and working with a good trainer, those are the ones who will mess up their dog. With ecollar training, you can't just put it on and expect changed behavior that moment. You have to condition it. I am glad I wasn't one of those who jumped into it. I did my research and am proud to say, my dog much happier than she used to be.

 

[eront]

@froggyfan1 Eh, I still think it's the people. I've had pretty much all working dogs and shiba inu. All the working dogs were dogs of shelter/inconsistent history and had some reactivity issues. My 70lb cattle dog mix was basically a product of working farm dogs in Tennessee and he was a nightmare and handed to me as a last resort. No corrections, just consistency structure and with that he's now a service dog and a pretty damn good one. Could I have used corrections? Sure it likely could have worked just fine, just it's not my style. It's personal choice, not the dog.

I probably would have hired IAABC trainers for reactivity to the point I was fearing euth. CCPDT trainers are often good at what they do, but IAABC guarantees bmod proficiency. It's how I'm working with my doberman I basically spared from a path to euthanasia. He's just got one more bump before really being functional.

I feel like "research" is how a lot of people get into the mess like what you see in this thread. There's a lot of really misguided information on a google search about dogs. What most people call "research" is people looking up something on google and finding something they agree with.

I think those who jump into correction training without learning and working with a good trainer, those are the ones who will mess up their dog.

Not only. Any dog can have fallout. Any dog can actually have their behaviors masked instead of fixed (and, no, that's not just with aversive use, I literally have paid for classes to lessen the risk). It's also somewhat dangerous to encourage people on the internet for that reason. Training isn't regulated and you can't even guarantee there's anyone who will condition tool use or use it fairly, you also can't guarantee competence. I've seen way more fallout cases than I personally care to.

 

[froggyfan1]

@eront I agree. When I was training without ecollar and prong, I think I made my dog worse. Perhaps I didn't understand what I was doing, but I was certainly trying to stay away from aversives. Frankly, while trying to be +R and aversive free, I think I had messed up my dog. My bond with my ACD and her respect for me was just not there back then even though I was always training with her. During my move across the US she got worse (I believe due to the stress of change). I decided to work with a trainer that used e-collar and prong along with +R and my dog turned out great. My trainer had great reviews, was very open about their methods and the facility was great. This trainer works with many rescues (most for malenois and GS and various working breeds), and after rehab work they adopt out these former problem dogs. Another thing that I loved about this trainer is the various things they teach such as scent work, agility, and some other things.

Personally, I think people should train starting with the lowest level of aversives (no aversives to averaives) every dog learns differently and thus some dogs don't require aversives. I curently have one dog, but if I got another I would certainly start training without correction tools, because positive reinforcement really works great. And I have learned so much with my current dog and understand where I went wrong, so I aim to do better with my next dog I ever I get one (but my girl is only 4 so it will be a while)

 

[shpchvr]

@teksoft Haven’t used the e-collar in about 2 months.

 

[teksoft]

@shpchvr Perfect! I really commend you for putting yourself out there like this. It takes a lot to scrap what you think you know and open up to other perspectives. I know reading books isn’t for everyone, but getting that foundation of how behavior modification and learning works before working with a professional will save you so much time and money. Is there a medium that you prefer to learn and can absorb information best? Videos, podcasts, audiobooks, and articles are all out there that can help if books aren’t really your style. I would love to recommend something that works for you!

 

[notbybreadalone]

@shpchvr When you say positive reinforcement doesn’t work, is it ONLY because she misbehaves right after and only does it for the treats?

Positive reinforcement does work and IMO it’s the only method that should be used when teaching a dog something. You add corrections to enforce the behaviour, only once the dog understands the command 100%. When doing positive reinforcement, you don’t only have to use treats. You can use praise, toys, play, sniffing, etc. It might be best to switch up the reward (think of it as a lottery approach) so your dog is keen on doing the command but won’t be expecting a treat. You also have to work on duration, which takes time. Your dog shouldn’t release a command until you tell it to. Do you have a release command? (“Break” “free” “ok” etc?) If your dog is in a sit, or place or down, it should stay that way until you release the dog. This will help with impulse control and listening to YOU. One of my dogs is the same way, he does everything for food and in the beginning we were screwed without treats. We just needed more time doing training (multiple times a day), switching rewards (less treats) and being consistent with the hold & release.

Another thing is if you’re starting to get frustrated during training, you need to STOP. You cannot train a dog properly when you’re upset or frustrated. You need to be patient and in good spirits. The moment I feel like my dog is not getting it or she’s having an off day, we focus on something else. Better for you and for the dog. Dogs are big on energy and they can sense when you’re angry and in turn, the stress they feel doesn’t allow them to think properly and they can’t learn. Keep training sessions very short. We do 3-5 mins of obedience everyday (sometimes several times a day) no more than 10-15 mins for new tricks or they get frustrated.

Otherwise, like everyone else has said, I’d recommend dropping the e collar for now (I love the e collar, but right now you need to build trust). PLAY with your dog. Find what gets her motivated. Play tug, agility, fetch, hiking, scent work, etc. Make yourself the best part of your dogs day and make sure all the fun your dog has is with YOU.

Good luck!

 

[shpchvr]

UPDATE:
I want to start by saying thank you to everyone who has commented, it’s appreciated.

I need to be clear that I came to this thread for input, and that’s what I got and I’m so thankful for it. It’s helped me reaffirm my desire to “start over” was the right one. Especially the links to the “learned helplessness”.

I also want to make sure everyone knows: I see my dog is confused AND my growing frustration. I posted last night genuinely emotional as I just didn’t get why his theory about respect wasn’t working.

“Your dog loves you but doesn’t respect you.” kept ringing in my ears as if I was missing something.

My original desire to contact a trainer was to help ease her fear aggression. She barks at dogs and other people when on walks regularly. She’s terrified of the world and I’m just hoping to take her training to confidence.

This “training” I was doing these last 2 weeks has clearly damaged my relationship with her, no matter how great of a dog mom I am.

She exercises regularly. Fetch is her favorite game and I typically work her to appropriate exhaustion. We do engagement training, place work, eye contact, etc. She knows her commands, including heel. (She’s a great walker when in her command) she’s even off leash trained.

She’s just still very nervous and I was hoping to provide her the comfort and leadership she needed over time with a professional trainer.

Re: the e-collar
I wasn’t clear that the e-collar is actually what took our relationship to such a positive level a year and a half ago. It turned her engagement and trust in me up, and eventually I rarely had to use it, only when she was triggered.

I still used rewards (praise, treats, play) and incorporate tricks into our play sessions still.

We lost the remotes to ours and I didn’t know how to communicate with her properly without it. So, again, was hoping to take sharpen my skills without it.

I will still take all additional feedback, I just saw a lot of questions / curiosities so providing that clarity here if it helps give more specific advice.